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My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

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Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#441

I have a smart dishwasher. Anyone who doesn't have one and is bashing them simply hasn't had the pleasure of trying them out. They're pure joy. My 2 year old loves to help me load the dishes. She complains if I don't let her close the soap container and then press the button to start the machine. It's never broken dishes on me. Never failed to clean anything. I've never forgotten to start it, or forgotten to add soap…

I had to read to the end of your comment, before I realized what you were saying. Ha! Sounded like you were describing my Bosch dishwasher, which is flawless and does not have WiFi. Put dishes in, press one button, walk away and come back later to perfectly clean dishes. I love the thing.

But my two year old is now 11 and doesn't like to help with dishes any more. Sigh.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#442
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when HA notices, that the machine has not run in 3 days, but is closed, then it can send a notification to my phone But why? If I haven’t run it in three days, then I don’t need it to run. The only way this might be useful for me would be if HA could magically realize the dishwasher is full and I forgot to run it, but it’s not going to be able to do that. It can’t tell the difference been “I forgot” and “I don’t wa…

I don't buy devices, if they need to be "on-the-internet" to function. But If I have the choice between a dumb one, and one with the same mechanics, but also a simple SoC with a bunch of sensors and relays connected, that I can talk to with "non-vendor-products" with only a small price difference, THEN I will leave the dumb one on the shelf, and take home the one, that I can actually integrate WELL into my workflows.

I fully expect a number of these smart devices to potentially break once they stop getting service support. Or at least to have a very degraded experience. “Hey, I haven’t been able to connect to the internet to download updates in a while. Can you read this and dismiss this message literally every time you use me from now on?”

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#443

People will complain about the need to IoT ALL the things, the security risks, the impracticality of something not being able to do its basic function because DNS is down, or whatever. I can't say I disagree. But I also have to admit that the most annoying aspect of my dishwasher, which is a higher-end one, is that it cannot alert me that it is done other than by playing some annoying music, which I am not close enou…

> playing some annoying music

Samsung? Do any other appliance manufacturers play a long tune at the end of the cycle? My washing machine and dryer both play the same tune. I'm used to it, but it was jarring at first.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#444
post #407
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use cases given above are legit. Doing yard work, see the notice from machine that it is done, so I can go move to the next load. Or, close it, but not start in case I find a few extra items. None of that is necessary, sure. But, also isn't worth vitriol from the crowd that hates them.

I always laughed at this, until I became a parent, but am now utterly convinced that there are a lot of features out there that look stupid until you are a parent why does my fridge need to text me if the door is left open? that's ridiculous! Well yeah...but if your teenager leaves it open, as teenagers are won't to do, how would I know if I'm in an office in another part of the house? (hypothetical, I don't have tee…

Sloping to drain like that sounds interesting. I've often been curious why large locker room methods aren't used in houses. I'm assuming it is mainly aesthetics?

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#445
post #5

Looks like a Miele. That menu can be exited (the image where it says "Software Update", the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options including the ability to exit this menu), but it does imply that the dishwasher is already connected to Wi-Fi and that it has determined that there is an update available. There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu…

>Alternatively as the dishwasher clearly is on Wi-Fi already (the only way it would know there's an update)

I guess yes it might be that but consider this workflow -

First start Ask to update software - sounds legit OK Now you've okayed, now we ask to connect to Wi-fi - obviously need to connect to update software which you already agreed to!

If say user testing found that more people agreed to connect to Wi-Fi as part of update software on first installation then we get the above workflow and nobody says my dishwasher won't let me start without connecting to Wi-Fi which to some people might sound more worrying. And people then say there are lots of reasons why you should take software update - what about security! Bug fixes in the dishwasher!

but all that said you are probably right, it is on wi-fi and that's how it knows, but it won't necessarily stay that way forever.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#446
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly why Stallman invented free software: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-impor... .

Problem: People are writing bad software with bugs and dark patterns. Solution: Software development should be the only creative profession in the entire world with no legal protection on their work!? It's insane to me. Absolutely insane. Copyright is not immoral. Almost nobody in this thread would be able to make any money as a software engineer if software were not allowed to make money. And yes, I've heard the arg…

No, but if something is abandoned by a company, then it should be made open. Your car/dishwasher/washing machine/thermostat/door locks should not stop working because some brilliant small company was bad at the profit side of things and folded. They should not stop working because some large company simply got bored and decided to follow another market trend. This is why user repair-ability/unlocking/jail-breaking of devices should be legally protected.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#447

Is it weird that the more tech becomes like this the more I feel checked out? I don’t want smart devices, nor do I want to be online 24/7. However it’s hard to escape this reality. My thermostat (in apartment) recently reset due to a power issue and I had to have maintenance over to do its configuration again. They had to come twice because after setting it up they have to figure out how to connect it to Wi-Fi for a…

As much as I love technology, I have my personal limits and can relate to your post. Whenever this subject comes up, I'm reminded of this (Red Dwarf);

https://youtu.be/LRq_SAuQDec

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#448
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Updates improve wash efficiency, etc. Not just security updates. Maybe a new cleaning powder comes with a new algo. Maybe there's a better dosing for certain levels of water hardness. But the gist is that it updates the whole module. I'm fine with this, Miele are like Bosch in that they look after the hardware they sell for decades rather than considering it deprecated the day it leaves a shop floor.

Maybe a silly question, but does Miele require a specific kind of cleaning powder or packet, or does it have an option to tell it what kind of cleaning powder you're using? My dishwasher you just dump any boxed powder in and I can use any brand I want. I'm assuming that for a machine this expensive and geared at long-term usage Miele would have the same capabilities, and it's not like a Keurig thing where the user is…

> does Miele require a specific kind of cleaning powder or packet

No.

But they do have an auto-dosing capability on some models that take a disk and dispense the right amount of powder for the given wash.

Which? reviewed this and concluded it's a gimmick: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/09/is-this-miele-dishwashe... . I agree with this verdict.

The washing machine auto-dosing though... that isn't as bad, being more cost-efficient overall.

My take on it all: Miele dishwashers are so-so... their washing machines and fridges excellent, the ovens above average, the hobs exceptional, the hoods well made but over-priced.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#449
post #5

Looks like a Miele. That menu can be exited (the image where it says "Software Update", the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options including the ability to exit this menu), but it does imply that the dishwasher is already connected to Wi-Fi and that it has determined that there is an update available. There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu…

I think in the end it's not abut utility--adding "smart" lets you dramatically bump the price. Look at smoke detectors (as an example I was thinking about this morning): the best-rated (Consumer Reports) wired smoke detector costs $31. Ten-year sealed battery models cost less. But the smart smoke detectors start at $130. These cost another $2 in hardware and some dev (and probably certification) costs to recoup, but…

That best rated consumer reports detector only detects fast burning fires.

The Nest Protect, for example, has both slow burning and fast burning smoke detectors as well as carbon monoxide. Three detectors in one. They also have built sensors and perform weekly automatic self tests to ensure they will make noise/alert when needed and that the detectors are working. A non functioning sensor in a detector just provides a false sense of security. Just about every time there are deaths from house fires detectors are either missing or are non-functioning.

Speaking of non-functioning, many people disconnect detectors because the cheap ones are so hard to silence if there is a false alarm. Again with the Nest Protects you just wave at them. People are far less likely to disable something if it's not annoying.

When there is an event instead of just loudly beeping, they also speak in a clear voice what the issue is (smoke, CO, etc.) - and more importantly, which detector is going off so you know where the issue is as well. I love that for my parents who are older - clarity in a time of crises is life saving.

So yeah, at $100 (easy to find them on sale or bundled) they cost more than a $31 detector - but they also do a hell of a lot more. Having had friends/family who have had to deal with house fires in the middle of the night (very disorienting) or near death experiences with undetected carbon monoxide (it's more common that one would think!) the slight price increase of them is WELL worth it. A ridiculous pittance for the greatly increased peace of mind.

And they still work without connecting to the Internet. I would at least do it initially to configure them, especially to program in their locations so you get useful information in an emergency, then disconnect them if you are really paranoid. However I do like the alerting if there is a problem with one. It happens - sensors don't last forever and I'd rather know about a non-functioning detector and replace it rather than have a useless piece of plastic on the wall.

Also love the motion activated path light feature of them too - so perfect for moving around at night without waking others or having to fumble for a switch. Wish they had an option for brighter lights, especially for units in the hallway - or as supplemental emergency egress lighting. Would help further offset their higher cost.

But yeah, smart detectors - probably one place where there is SIGNIFICANT net benefit well worth the increased cost.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#450
It's time for all of these IoT companies to come together and agree on a shared protocol. If my dishwasher must update it's firmware, I assume that it can also connect to the SaaS of my choice which I have chosen to automate my house with. There's no excuse for showing me the update on a tiny $1-on-Aliexpress OLED display. This manufacturer should be killed by another one that follows a shared standard (if one existed).
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