Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 484 posts

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#171

Post by RyEgswuCsn »

howmayiannoyyou wrote: post #126
coliveira wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a paranoia induced reaction that is being fostered by the media and the war industry, who are interested in creating a new cold war scenario.

Incorrect. It is a MORAL issue. Technology stolen from the US companies is advancing the national security agendas of countries with no regard for human rights and the rule of law. It is immoral to turn a blind eye to this very real threat.

Well, many military technologies developed by the US companies are being used to manufacture weaponries used to kill foreign civilians... what's the moral of that story?

Also, by your logic what if totalitarian regimes are to steal medical technologies from US companies to develop medicines for their citizens? Is that moral or immoral?

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#172

Post by boomboomsubban »

andreilys wrote: post #106
beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world Yes. It completely bankrupted and destroyed the Canadian company Nortel [1]. Sure there were other problems that led to the downfall of Nortel, but this was a major contributing factor and has had a big impact on the Canadian tech ecosystem. https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-milita...

So in the years before this hack, Nortel had already laid off more than 2/3rds of it's workforce, received a massive government bailout, and had top execs like their CEO fired for an "accounting mistake" that cost billions. "Other problems" is an understatement.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#173

Post by chalst »

andreilys wrote: post #106
beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world Yes. It completely bankrupted and destroyed the Canadian company Nortel [1]. Sure there were other problems that led to the downfall of Nortel, but this was a major contributing factor and has had a big impact on the Canadian tech ecosystem. https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-milita...

That story revolves around Brian Shields's account, which, while I don't doubt the details, I think lacks the business perspective and doesn't really explain Nortel's demise. Nortel was maximising growth during the the dot-com boom, spending heavily on acquisitions and not paying attention to its profitability. It couldn't have been worse placed to handle the dot-com bust when its main market shrunk hugely. Huawei and ZTE were not really major competitors internationally at the time.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#174

Post by Schiendelman »

throwawayarnty wrote: post #10

The worst part of these accusations is that your reputation is tarnished whether you are guilty or not. This instilled a sense of fear in every person even if they are innocent because you can still be targeted and your career ruined. If this scientist was just stating out, rather than already established, he would likely have had to quit science. There should be some penalty for false accusations that can compensate…

He can certainly sue the US government for accusing him publicly without enough evidence to prosecute, and the resulting loss of compensation.

Now, it's not exactly affordable for him to do so. But that's a separate problem we should solve.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#175

Post by FredPret »

lucian1900 wrote: post #135
FredPret wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, on the other hand, seem to have internalized a class-based worldview. I'm not sure that's healthy either

Class struggle is the engine of history. Whether that fact is healthy for myself personally or not has no bearing on its truth. The company I work for keeps more of the value I create than they pay me. Whether I like it or not, I'm working class and in direct opposition to capitalists.

1) I doubt you're actually working class, even if you're working for money

2) Capitalism is a decentralized system of allocating resources. By working and investing (even if just owning a retirement plan), you are taking part in it all. You may now collect your monocle and top hat.

3) Getting paid some fraction between 0 and 1 of the value you create is a fact of nature for all actors in the system. The company has to create more value for its customers than they pay for it, otherwise nobody would bother buying.

4) The system itself creates vast amounts of wealth and progress, for the entire society. You wouldn't have a good job and a good computer if it wasn't for all that extra value.

5) Don't confuse capitalists with capitalism. The people may behave badly, but the system is resilient - that's why it's been working well for centuries, through thick and thin.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#176

Post by ngc248 »

prionassembly wrote: post #143
beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

Scientists do not necessarily see the global picture here -- if anything, they'll be inclined to downplay geopolitical and nat-security issues (or at look the other way) if it produces more and better science. This is excluding any consideration of funding -- just what a scientist is supposed to care about. Some people need to take science more seriously, but there's a kind of crowd that needs to stop worshipping sci…

>>> if it produces more and better science

Its not even about science anymore, its all about money and prestige [0]. I am not saying there are no principled scientists, but money and prestige makes the world go around.

[0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/21/science/charles-lieber.ht...

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#177

Post by hazelmatic »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

I'd like to point out that the majority of replies to this comment are about industrial espionage, and not academic research.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#178

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

andreilys wrote: post #106
beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world Yes. It completely bankrupted and destroyed the Canadian company Nortel [1]. Sure there were other problems that led to the downfall of Nortel, but this was a major contributing factor and has had a big impact on the Canadian tech ecosystem. https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-milita...

It's dismaying to see history rewritten so brazenly.

Nortel collapsed because it made bad investments during the tech bubble, and then was hit by the nosedive in investment in network expansion when the bubble burst. On top of that, Nortel was terribly led, resorted to fudging its finances, and got caught.

That's what caused Nortel to collapse, not supposed Chinese spying. Huawei, the alleged beneficiary of the spying (which is just an unproven allegation at this point), was not even a major rival to Nortel when Nortel began to collapse. Huawei had barely even begun to expand out of China at that point. Nortel had much larger international competitors.

Yet somehow, almost two decades after Nortel began to implode, a rewritten history of Nortel's collapse, somehow premised on Chinese spying, has begun to become popular. I think this has much more to do with the recent increase in tensions between China and Canada than with any new information about how Nortel went under.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#179

Post by tharne »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

> ... is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world?

Yes

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#180

Post by lulantivaxxers »

commandlinefan wrote: post #167
biohax2015 wrote: post #158

Please read about the Cultural Revolution. To call this “equivalent “ is laughable.

> To call this “equivalent “ yet.

Call me when scholars are being massacred in the streets... Get a grip.
Post reply on HN