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In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

nytimes.com

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Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#101

Post by retrac »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #81
MadSudaca wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> made it less likely the working class would rise up against the capitalist ruling class It would make it less likely for the country to shoot itself in the foot and radically lower the standards of living of its citizens, like happened and, unfortunately, still happens, in every country that adopted communist ideas in their government.

I don't think “communist ideas” is well-defined. Could you explain what you mean by the phrase?

Not OP but it seemed unambiguous to me given "countries that have adopted". The countries that proclaimed themselves communist at some point -- the Soviet Union, China, Yugoslavia, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Angola, etc. (Most no longer exist, only Cuba, Vietnam, China and Laos are governed by self-described communist parties today.)

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#102

Post by fennecfoxen »

teh_klev wrote: post #46
Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #32

Like McCarthyism it’s a noble cause, but I can’t help but wonder if these initiatives rather tend to be outsmarted by the real spies. People who are accidentally incriminated by clerical errors and misunderstandings are much lower hanging fruit.

> Like McCarthyism it’s a noble cause I'm unsure if this is sarcasm or not.

The thing people today may not know about McCarthyism is that there WERE a lot of Soviet spies in the State Department. It desperately needed to be addressed.

The reason people forget this is because McCarthyism itself was not actually a very good remedy. It was great for the self-aggrandizement of Senator McCarthy (until he went too far, and his target Mr. Welch called him out while being interrogated before the Senate for making a national show of a very weak question of Welch’s colleague, a question could have been raised far more timely without the spectacle). It was great for building an atmosphere of fear, too. But in the end it was a pretty bad spy eradication program.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#103

Post by locallost »

Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #52
teh_klev wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like McCarthyism it’s a noble cause I'm unsure if this is sarcasm or not.

It’s not. Why on earth would you want to have a bunch of Soviet or communist Chinese spies running around?

McCarthyism boils down to someone having absolute power to destroy somebody else's life based on their own beliefs. For instance, homosexuals were also targeted by McCarthy, simply because they were interpreted as subversive. It's nothing more than a modern witch hunt, a practice that can't be reconciled with what we consider the rule of law today.

There is absolutely nothing noble about it.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#105

Post by p_l »

tsol wrote: post #31

>The dismissal is a setback to the China Initiative, an effort started in 2018 to crack down on economic and scientific espionage by China. Many of the prosecutions, like the case against Dr. Chen, do not allege espionage or theft of information, but something narrower: failing to disclose Chinese affiliations in grant applications to U.S. agencies. Critics say it has instilled a pervasive atmosphere of fear among sc…

What if the chilling effect and cruelty is the, perhaps silent, point?

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#106

Post by andreilys »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world

Yes. It completely bankrupted and destroyed the Canadian company Nortel [1]. Sure there were other problems that led to the downfall of Nortel, but this was a major contributing factor and has had a big impact on the Canadian tech ecosystem.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-milita...

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#107

Post by jason-phillips »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

> Are you all really here in 2022, being like "we can't risk a Chinese national from even seeing our American semiconductor research, they will steal it and use it against us?"

There are a number of issues at play here and I can speak to several of them, having either helped the federal government directly or having knowledge of industrial espionage in my industry at the time (semiconductors).

Some technology is export-controlled in the United States, full stop. Semiconductor research may absolutely be export-controlled and thus may not leave the United States or be shown to foreign nationals. Any researcher's talk, paper, research, materials, etc. must undergo an export controls review first before it leaves the United States or is shown to a foreign national. This is SOP at every research lab in the United States.

If you do not disclose information when asked by the federal government as part of an investigation impacting national security, then woe be unto you. I don't know what else to say there. It appears that this may be what caused this gentleman the issues outlined by the NY Times.

Industrial espionage is absolutely a thing in the semiconductor industry. I was once told how Hynix pilfered fab designs from Samsung. The loss was estimated to be $1 billion. I am personally aware of other lesser IP loss through the hands of careless engineers.

I hope this helps answer your question. It is absolutely a thing in 2022.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#108

Post by Tabular-Iceberg »

automatoney wrote: post #85
Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #32

Like McCarthyism it’s a noble cause, but I can’t help but wonder if these initiatives rather tend to be outsmarted by the real spies. People who are accidentally incriminated by clerical errors and misunderstandings are much lower hanging fruit.

Behold, "a noble cause": "On May 26, 1947, the Federal Bureau of Investigation issued a memo stating, 'With regard to the picture It's a Wonderful Life, [redacted] stated in substance that the film represented rather obvious attempts to discredit bankers by casting Lionel Barrymore as a 'scrooge-type' so that he would be the most hated man in the picture. This, according to these sources, is a common trick used by Co…

That’s precisely my point. Going to the movies to look for something to act outraged about is safe, easy and cheap. Doing actual counter-intelligence is dangerous, hard and expensive.

The FBI being distracted with this nonsense is probably the greatest gift the real spies could have hoped for.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#109

Post by gurkendoktor »

sigmaprimus wrote: post #82
gurkendoktor wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No disagreement about ethics, but: > This is a basic truth of economics. Is this basic truth backed up by anything tangible? Ethnic Chinese already face unfair hurdles by the current push against standardized testing. But one more obstacle would suddenly make the US unable to compete? With whom, anyway - the only worthy competitor I can think of is hardly egalitarian. It seems like dangerously wishful thinking to me…

>>>Ethnic Chinese already face unfair hurdles by the current push against standardized testing. Please elaborate on this argument.

Hard to pick a neutral source about this, how about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v...

> According to his testimony, if an Asian-American applicant with certain characteristics (like scores, GPAs, and extracurricular activities, family background) would result in a 25% statistical likelihood of admission, the same applicant, if white, will have a 36% likelihood of admission.

(And that is with standardized testing in the mix, it stands to reason that the gap will grow with further emphasis on "personality".)

I don't have data to prove that these statistics apply to Chinese-Americans specifically, that's an assumption on my side. Whether this is morally wrong is up for debate, but I thought it was relevant in the context of national competitiveness.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#110

Post by shadowgovt »

jason-phillips wrote: post #107
beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

> Are you all really here in 2022, being like "we can't risk a Chinese national from even seeing our American semiconductor research, they will steal it and use it against us?" There are a number of issues at play here and I can speak to several of them, having either helped the federal government directly or having knowledge of industrial espionage in my industry at the time (semiconductors). Some technology is expo…

> The estimated loss was estimated to be $1 billion.

I always give side eye to the accounting that considers lost sales opportunities to be losses.

Not saying Hynix did nothing wrong, only that that number assumes a lot of factors that are in no way guaranteed (stability of the market, no third player independently developing innovations that would create an attractive alternative for customers, the ability of the stealing company to implement the design they've acquired, etc.).

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