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The case against masks at school

theatlantic.com

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Re: The case against masks at school

#621

Post by pcmoney »

sleepybrett wrote: post #607
Closi wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are the only deaths we seem to care about those that are Covid related? If we are worried about killing people worldwide, far more people die of hunger-related causes each day, but we aren't rebuilding our entire society to save those people. But I can't see a reason why deaths from Covid are more of a tragedy than those we left to starve. Or take smoking for instance - more people die each year from smoking than…

Smoking, at least where I live is heavily taxed and regulated. You can't smoke in any building open to the public or place of employment, you can't smoke within 25ft of any entrance to any of those buildings either. Cigarettes are taxed to hell and back as well. I guess we could do that to the people unwilling to get vaxxinated. Tax them for their status and bar them from any building open to the public or place of e…

Why would we bar them?

Getting vaccinated does not stop you from getting Covid and it does not stop the spread of Covid.

I could see a tax break for being vaccinated as a viable incentive.

Re: The case against masks at school

#622

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

alsetmusic wrote: post #611
perardi wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and? The hospital case load is overwhelmingly, screamingly, massively dominated by the elderly unvaccinated. https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/... Given the extremely contagious nature of Omicron, what plausible way do we have to prevent these individuals from getting COVID and using hospital space? And don't say masking up kids—because if they haven't gotten vaccinated, then why do you…

There’s a simple solution, but good luck getting everyone on board with it: stop treating the willingly unvaxxed in hospitals. Only vaxxed patients and medically-ineligible unvaxxed patients get treatment. If you can’t do this minuscule thing to help society then society can’t be turned on its head to help you.

Firstly, there no way to check someone’s vaccination status. There are fake cards, there are people who got vaccinated before government databases, there are people who got vaccinated without documentation, there are people who got documentation from medical people who didn’t actually perform the vaccination.

Secondly, it is massively against a breach of ethics to intentionally withhold care from people because of a moral judgement. Medicine knows where that goes and is strongly incentivized to never go there again.

Re: The case against masks at school

#623

Post by groby_b »

perardi wrote: post #384
taylodl wrote: post #304

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

Yes, and? The hospital case load is overwhelmingly, screamingly, massively dominated by the elderly unvaccinated. https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/... Given the extremely contagious nature of Omicron, what plausible way do we have to prevent these individuals from getting COVID and using hospital space? And don't say masking up kids—because if they haven't gotten vaccinated, then why do you…

You're aware that you're arguing about the health impact on children using a doc that ignores anybody Anything that follows from that will be a flawed argument.

Re: The case against masks at school

#624

Post by DavidSJ »

claytongulick wrote: post #349
DavidSJ wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to the article, in the only large randomized studies that have been performed, masking showed little, if any benefit. From the first one [1] they linked: > odds ratio, 0.82 [CI, 0.54 to 1.23] … Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection. … Sounds like the issue is lack of statistical power. We basically…

I agree that we interpret the results of those studies very differently. I'd also suggest that we only regard lab studies with a bit of intellectual curiosity, rather than a meaningful focus. Lab studies are very different than the real world where my son trades his batman mask for a friend's spiderman mask because it's cooler :D

In biological sciences we have to integrate multiple kinds of evidence — in vitro (or in larva? — in the mask) lab experiments, animal models, randomized controlled trials in humans, descriptive statistics of human populations, in silico simulation, etc. — because they all have their advantages and disadvantages.

Lab/in vitro models are great because they allow for tightly controlled conditions and are clear tests of mechanisms, but they might not represent real-world conditions in living human beings in our social context, with all of the attending quirks and nuances.

Animal models are great because they're a complete organism upon which we can still do a whole range of controlled experiments which we can't do in people. But they're not human beings, so there could be differences there. And we can't control them as closely as e.g. an experiment with a few cells or a few viral particles.

etc. etc.

When all the evidence seems to be pointing in roughly the same direction, I think it's fair to say we know something. That appears to be the case with masks limiting the spread of Covid, even if the confidence intervals on the randomized controlled trials are large. That's very different from "little, if any benefit".

Re: The case against masks at school

#625

Post by TameAntelope »

meragrin_ wrote: post #462
TameAntelope wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So teach the children how to wear masks. We don't let kids shit on the floor because they don't innately know how to use toilets...

Who's going to teach them? Parents aren't going to have time or will miss critical areas. Teachers won't want to do it. If teachers do attempt it, it would likely be weeks or months of education down the drain since they'll be constantly taking breaks to correct students one by one.

Who, in a school, I wonder, could possibly teach children something....

...yeah, it'd be teachers teaching the children, and it would take a lot less time than weeks or months.

Re: The case against masks at school

#626

Post by pcmoney »

sleepybrett wrote: post #607
Closi wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are the only deaths we seem to care about those that are Covid related? If we are worried about killing people worldwide, far more people die of hunger-related causes each day, but we aren't rebuilding our entire society to save those people. But I can't see a reason why deaths from Covid are more of a tragedy than those we left to starve. Or take smoking for instance - more people die each year from smoking than…

Smoking, at least where I live is heavily taxed and regulated. You can't smoke in any building open to the public or place of employment, you can't smoke within 25ft of any entrance to any of those buildings either. Cigarettes are taxed to hell and back as well. I guess we could do that to the people unwilling to get vaxxinated. Tax them for their status and bar them from any building open to the public or place of e…

So we bar them because they are making individual choices that don’t impact us and we want to control them because we are afraid/disagree with those choices?

Re: The case against masks at school

#627

Post by TameAntelope »

nradov wrote: post #439
TameAntelope wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the trick; I can temporarily remove all contact with people and animals, while there's an active deadly virus killing astronomically large numbers of people in my country. Will I need to be like this forever? No. Can I be like this for another year or so? Yes. It's highly unpleasant, but I (and some others like me) can actually isolate to the degree you jokingly suggest. And why wouldn't I? Because of some…

Humans aren't robots. There's nothing primitive or optional about the need for physical social interaction. The people who disagree with you aren't wrong, they simply have different subjective priorities and values.

There absolutely is something optional about the need (as in food, water) for physical social interaction, and the people who disagree with me are, factually, incorrect, know they're incorrect, and are acting selfishly at the cost of human lives.

Is it entirely pleasant? No. Is it temporary? Yes. You will survive without physically being around your buddies for a few years while a global fucking pandemic is resolved...

Re: The case against masks at school

#628

Post by 323 »

giantg2 wrote: post #216
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for ap…

"no actual reduced inflow of air due to mask wearing, certainly not one that you would detect physiologically." Depends on how you measure it and what you mean by physiologically detect. Generally, the resistance of breathing through a ("good") mask is not automatically detectable, but does exist and one could detect it if they are attentive. Your body tends to increase tidal volume and/or respiration rate because of…

Notice how they said "no reduced inflow", not "no increased effort".

Re: The case against masks at school

#629

Post by hooande »

colpabar wrote: post #461
perardi wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYTimes has a pretty good source on this. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-hospitals-... I'll tell you that here in Chicago, based off data, and anecdotes: really depends on the neighborhood. Vaccinated areas? Doing fine. Undervaccinated areas? Not doing so well. Gosh, it's like vaccines work and that's the way out of this.

> Gosh, it's like vaccines work and that's the way out of this. You know, I see snarky little comments like this becoming more and more common on this site, and I'd just like to point out that they are not helpful in any way. Who is it directed towards? Do you think you are convincing anyone , or encouraging a productive discussion? I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of people on this website are va…

It's a commonly accepted fact that vaccines work. We were all vaccinated against multiple viruses as babies for a reason.

The fact that he added the word "Gosh" to his comment doesn't make it insulting or target any specific group of people. You're taking great offense over nothing and distracting from a meaningful discussion.

Re: The case against masks at school

#630

Post by AnthonBerg »

pcmoney wrote: post #605
dsl wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know multiple households where the initial infection vector was the kids. Grandpa might be stupid and refuse the vaccine, but keeping little Billy from becoming a carrier lessens the hospital load. If screaming Karens are going to insist on in person learning, we need to mask test and vaccinate in the schools.

Why? Masks dont help much. Vaccines dont stop contagion or transmission. They do lower risk of severe covid but kids are very low risk even if unvaccinated.

> Masks don’t help much

It depends what kind of mask. Proper respirator masks like N95 and FFP2 work very well. There are now very clear results that show that the main mode of transmission is respiratory aerosol.

As an example, this Lancet paper captures it well: ”Ten scientific reasons in support of airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2”, The Lancet, 2021. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

Numerous results have come out since.

I can’t find fault with the data or the investigation or the conclusion – I act according to this: We’re dealing with an airborne pathogen. Aerosolized.

Closed masks – respirator masks – N95/FFP2. These do work. Almost unreasonably well.

“Surgical masks” that gape at the sides do not protect well against aerosolized particles.

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