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The case against masks at school

theatlantic.com

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Re: The case against masks at school

#211

Post by cartoonfoxes »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158
hydrok9 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about if you have anxiety issues and the reduced inflow of air from masks gives you panic attacks? This has been my life for this pandemic. I take medication but it does not stop them 100% from happening, and I have to use anti-anxiety techniques most times I put one on to stop from being overwhelmed by anticipation. Does anyone care about people like me? It sure feels like they don't. And I have seen my physical…

[ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for ap…

>But you should be aware that there is no actual reduced inflow of air due to mask wearing

Huh? From https://weintraubcenter.dentistry.ucla.edu/n95-respirators-t...

>Pressure drop is a measure of the resistance that the air meets as it flows through the respirator filter and into the mask. This is important because the pressure drop affects the comfort and breathability of the mask- specifically a lower pressure drop is desirable as it translates to increased breathability and thus comfort.

> On average, those that have high filtration efficiency are also the ones with the largest pressure drop, which make it difficult to breath.

I'm aware not everyone is wearing a N95 or better respirator, but the metric applies to all masks.

Re: The case against masks at school

#212

Post by fortuna86 »

tsycho wrote: post #49
sul_tasto wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

perhaps an unmask would be helpful: https://www.getunmask.com/

From their website (About/Disclaimer): _The Unmask is not designed or intended to prevent, mitigate, treat, diagnose or cure any disease or health condition, including COVID-19/Coronavirus. Unmasks are intended for general public use only. They are non-sterile and are not intended for use in any clinical or surgical setting or where exposure to bodily or hazardous fluids may be expected, where the risk of exposure th…

So it's a cloth mask, which have been shown to barely protect you at all.

> The Unmask is not designed or intended to prevent, mitigate, treat, diagnose or cure any disease or health condition, including COVID-19/Coronavirus.

That goes beyond the "this isn't an n95 mask" - this is actually saying this mask is purely performative. Which is the accusation anti-maskers make. So they become what they accuse others of doing.

Great business.

Re: The case against masks at school

#213

Post by flycaliguy »

Panther34543 wrote: post #129
zdragnar wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been exposed to covid-positive people multiple times in my home (each time they found out they were positive after), no masking involved. I get tested after each exposure and have yet to get it either. Wearing masks and not catching covid is like wearing a bandana and not getting into a bike accident. It is an extremely contagious aerosolized virus that cloth masks simply aren't sufficient to stop. Meanwhile, th…

> Meanwhile, the effects of perpetual masking are obvious- harmful to deaf people, harmful to the development of speech and socialization in children, asthmatics and more. There's a ton more. I now have tons of facial scars due to continuous breakouts over the past two years due to masks (and, yes, I've spent about $2k trying all sorts of silk and other supposedly "comfortable" masks). Another thing that hasn't been…

My son wears a mask to kindergarten and I’ve been impressed by just how much it doesn’t seem to bother him or really matter at all. That link about deforming ears is interesting! It’s funny actually, my family tends to have stuck out “Obama ears” as well call them. Maybe this will create more “ear peers” with the potential to actually increase their hearing capabilities?

Re: The case against masks at school

#214

Post by brimble »

TurkishPoptart wrote: post #194
Avshalom wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we have a vaccine.

But it doesn't work (well enough) to matter.

It's still really good at reducing hospitalization & death rates, anyway. That's not nothing.

Does seem to be nearly useless at preventing symptomatic Omicron, though. Just makes it, on average, much less awful.

Re: The case against masks at school

#215

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

buzzert wrote: post #177
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for ap…

Blood-oxygen level is not relevant when it comes to mental well-being. I have the exact same problem as the parent commenter. I've tried exercising with a mask (cloth and surgical), and it feels like getting waterboarded (because the mask inevitably becomes soaked in sweat). It causes a great amount of anxiety for me, and literally feels like torture. I don't care about what lung volume/blood oxygen "studies" say.

I am double vaxed+boosted, and I still wear a mask everywhere I'm required to which includes still going to the gym 3-4 times a week.

My gym has gone back and forth between masks being required or not with the case count. I know I've read everything about airflow being fine, and there being no reduced oxygen intake, but having worked out with and without a mask depending on location in the past 2 years I can attest anecdotally as somebody with no health problems that even if only anecdotal it is way more taxing/difficult to recover breath when working out with a mask on, and can be borderline anxiety/torture especially after very intense sets or cardiovascular effort.

It easily takes me at least a couple more minutes to recover my breath/rest in between very hard sets of heavy squats for instance as compared to when not wearing a mask.

Re: The case against masks at school

#216

Post by giantg2 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158
hydrok9 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about if you have anxiety issues and the reduced inflow of air from masks gives you panic attacks? This has been my life for this pandemic. I take medication but it does not stop them 100% from happening, and I have to use anti-anxiety techniques most times I put one on to stop from being overwhelmed by anticipation. Does anyone care about people like me? It sure feels like they don't. And I have seen my physical…

[ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for ap…

"no actual reduced inflow of air due to mask wearing, certainly not one that you would detect physiologically."

Depends on how you measure it and what you mean by physiologically detect. Generally, the resistance of breathing through a ("good") mask is not automatically detectable, but does exist and one could detect it if they are attentive. Your body tends to increase tidal volume and/or respiration rate because of the rebreathing of the stale under the mask. There are certainly studies that measure the physiological effects, such that we set 15 minute and 8 hour limits on CO2 exposure etc.

Granted it's largely not an issue, but it's not necessarily correct to say that it offers no restriction and no physiological changes.

Re: The case against masks at school

#217

Post by ciceryadam »

hammock wrote: post #188
subsubzero wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The north star for most countries and cities has always been cases over hospitalizations or deaths. With vaccine intake high in most developed countries a covid infection is like a cold or a bad flu for some. I think the time has come to rethink this goal of cases being a metric to shut down everything and let society return to some sense of normalcy while still maintaining a safety mandate for those with special con…

Sounds like you are on a path to awakening so I don't want to discourage you, but it might be worth sharing additional data and context to parts of your comment. >With vaccine intake high in most developed countries a covid infection is like a cold or a bad flu for some. That may be more driven by the mildness of Omicron than it is by the protective effect of the vaccine. For example, the latest data show that vaccin…

From December 11 to January 7, 2022, 107 patients died in Scotland who were vaccinated twice.

Most of them (more than 95 percent) received the second dose more than six months before their deaths. As many as 96 percent of them "had other health complications that contributed to their deaths," the PHS report said. Their average age was 78.1 years.

Re: The case against masks at school

#218

Post by jaywalk »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158
hydrok9 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about if you have anxiety issues and the reduced inflow of air from masks gives you panic attacks? This has been my life for this pandemic. I take medication but it does not stop them 100% from happening, and I have to use anti-anxiety techniques most times I put one on to stop from being overwhelmed by anticipation. Does anyone care about people like me? It sure feels like they don't. And I have seen my physical…

[ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for ap…

Pure, unadulterated BS. I was in the hospital for a few days last year (unrelated to Covid) and as part of the standard discharge process, I had to walk around (with a mask on) while my blood oxygen was measured. It was slightly low, so the nurse said "take off your mask for a second" and sure enough, it popped right back up to normal. She said she sees it with almost everyone.

You're breathing in less air, and more CO2. There is no way it's not going to have an impact.

Re: The case against masks at school

#219

Post by xondono »

hogrider wrote: post #122

Wtf, masks absolutely work. Who is pushing this stuff and for what nefarious reasons? Do they think all children should get exposed early to the virus and then we'll develop heard immunity in decades to come? We have the vaccine for that.

> Wtf, masks absolutely work.

I’m not that sure. A lot of experts agree that there’s not much quality data to reach that conclusion.

Most “definitive proof” comes from mechanical studies (they measure how far your saliva is reaching with and with out mask), but that’s not the only important factor.

Masks are not designed for full day use, and by wearing them everyone is constantly touching their face, mouth and nose. This sounds to me like a way worse infection vector. Viruses like covid can survive for a long time on surfaces.

It’s hard to separate the effects of masks from that of hand sanitizer, vaccinations, or other measures taken.

Re: The case against masks at school

#220

Post by dchichkov »

u801e wrote: post #180

It appears that the article is looking at vaccination in addition to mask usage. There are many areas of the US where vaccination percentages are relatively low and vaccination percentage of children between the ages of 5 to 11 are even lower. While children may not wear masks correctly, at a population level, it stands to reason that wearing masks will reduce the chance of transmission. Just like condoms have a theo…

You may look at the data of how much protection masks add between the ages of 5 to 11 and 2 to 5. And how much other mitigations measures add (ventilation, cohorting, etc). You'll find that high quality masks for teachers reduce spread a lot. Masks for kids - the effect can't be clearly registered.

And using masks for kids, particularly outdoors is a hazard in itself. Masks tend to block lower peripheral vision. Which results in kids tripping and falling more often. Falls and playground injuries are a common cause of hospitalizations in the US [the order of 100k kids/year]. Masks also reduce ability to communicate [hazard]. And it is unclear what is the long-term impact on kids development.

Overall, at least to me, masking kids outdoors at this stage seem wrong. Indoor - questionable, it'd be good to see more statistics for this particular mitigation measure, if de-correlated from other mitigation measures.

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