This is a 10nm processor, right ? So a 10mn processor can be as fast as a 5mn processor but at more than double the voltage ? Not so bad. What would be the perf of this processor with TSMC 5nm tech ?
Those numbers are not comparable. In fact, these days they are meaningless. Intel used to measure a part of a transistor. Worked well until the geometry of the transistor changed and there wasn’t something comparable. So they chose something different that kinda looked right. TSMC chose something else. These numbers are meaningless. Mostly all the fabs really are talking about transistors per mm. But if you look clos…
Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max
261–270 of 368 posts
Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max
#262Hold on - it's 2022, and an extremely high end $4000 laptop with the latest Intel CPU and an NVIDIA 3080Ti comes with a display that's... 1080 resolution? My 2008 17" MacBook Pro has a screen that's 1920 x 1200. My iPhone 6+ is 1920 x 1080. What am I missing? Is the non-Apple world really fine with stagnant resolutions?
My 7 year old laptop is 1440p, and 4k laptops have been a thing for a long time. Every manufacturer has one.
Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
Overclocking isn't just limited by heat dissipation, and dealing with the additional heat generation is one of the easier issues to overcome. Much more limiting is the fact that the electronic components in the hardware (everything from RAM to the more "integrated" components on the PCBs) have certain amounts of time which they need to take in order to tie voltages high or low, to either read or output a bit. This am…
It's not like Apple would ever do it, but the M1 should have heaps of OC headroom. Given that the RAM is already on package, all they need to do is turn up the CPU multiplier. AMD chips are doing similar clocks to Intel on TSMC N7, so Apple could (but won't) have a chip running way higher than the clocks they are currently shipping with. Also, it's kinda inaccurate to imply any overclocked setup will crash, there's p…
I expect Apple has an extreme focus on power efficiency and especially idle / leakage power, much more than Intel considering the core basically the same as they use in their phones. They also have a different approach to turbo / dvfs. So I would expect M1 to actually be a lot tighter than Intel and not have so much OC headroom.
Obviously you can buy timing with voltage to some degree, so there would be something there probably. Modern nodes are running into more problems with voltage induced breakdown though so the OC limit looks very different to what you can ship in a product. Has anyone measured M1's VDD?
> AMD chips are doing similar clocks to Intel on TSMC N7, so Apple could (but won't) have a chip running way higher than the clocks they are currently shipping with.
Not their existing microarchitecture though. They do nearly 2x the work per clock as AMD chips which necessitates more logic per stage. Getting a microarchitectural edge means making less logic do more work and it's very possible Apple have some edge there, it just wouldn't be near 2x IMO.
The silicon technology of course plays into it, but when you look at how fast individual transistors and the shortest poly to connect them can switch, speeds over 100GHz have been possible on 90nm. Today's cutting edge is probably over 200GHz (e.g., search ring oscillator). So it's not a fundamental switching speed limit of the tech that gets you.
I would say Apple could probably redo the physical design and synthesis work and minimal logic changes to target a faster and leakier device that's not suitable for phones but might be a little fairer comparison. It wouldn't put it at a 5-6GHz frequency, but could easily be enough to re-take these benchmarks and still be ahead on efficiency.
Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are 3 M1 series chips, the M1, the M1 Pro, and the M1 Max. The M1 is a different die to the M1 Pro and M1 Max. I believe the Pro and Max are the same die binned differently as you alluded to.
They are all different dies. However, the M1 Pro is just an M1 Max design with a chunk lopped off the bottom. Not at the manufacturing stage; at the design stage. They are otherwise identical; the device tree representation of the M1 Max is a superset of the M1 Pro, down to memory addresses and everything. Binning comes in with the lower-core-count variants of each chip.
Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max
#2653.5%-5% increase in performance at more than double the wattage, for a chip that is not in consumers hands against a chip that basically hasn't changed and was released 14 months ago~ This is not the victory that the title implies. It's also a _little_ bit funny that the i9 laptop was double the price, given people usually rant loudly about how expensive Apple computers are.
the fact is, apple hardware is not _that_ expensive relative to what you get for the money. Their supply chain is super optimized, and it's hard to beat them on price if a competitor decides to try (at the same quality that is).
Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
the fact is, apple hardware is not _that_ expensive relative to what you get for the money. Their supply chain is super optimized, and it's hard to beat them on price if a competitor decides to try (at the same quality that is).
I think one thing that creates that impression is the costs for beefier options in the Apple store. Everytime I configure a Mac and add RAM I feel ripped off. The price difference between the upgraded Mac and what you'd pay on Newegg is just so large. I'm still a happy customer, since I still get so much lasting value, but in the moment it certainly hurts.
So their entry level machines are a great deal -- you get the quality of a 5000€ machine for just 2500€ if you can live with limited storage.
But if you want enough storage, you're paying the full price...
I'm not a fan of their policy, because the result is that lots of people get computers that are artificially crippled by low storage. But there's no way they could keep their entry level prices as low if they charged a fair price for upgrades.
Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max
#267I would think that speed would come 5th in my list of desirable feature in a laptop 1. portability 2. battery lifetime 3. cost 4. connectivity So Intel bragging for speed with such higher consumption and dedicated GPU (as opposed to integrated one). Maybe I have some niche use
You can buy a MacBook Air because you want to watch a show while cooking.
These are the situations I have encountered.
Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t find the same. Chrome seems to eat the battery a lot in my experience.
I deeply regret getting only 16gb ram in my air for exactly this reason.
Yeah, I regret it. I like to have YouTube videos on in the background, and usually it's fine, but for some reason live streams in particular just gobble up RAM until there's sometimes skipping audio and noticeable waits when switching apps.
Interestingly hiding the chat seems to help; I wonder if the YouTube "app" isn't flushing those DOM nodes corresponding to chat messages off the page after a certain amount of time or something. When worse comes to worse, Streamlink comes to the rescue: https://streamlink.github.io
Oh well. Making do for now. And as others have said, the performance (when not RAM-constrained) and noise (or lack thereof) have been blissful.
Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
> in single-threaded performance, it's really no faster than a dippy little Macbook Air. Maybe in terms of raw FLOPS or something, but more importantly it has enormous levels of memory and storage bandwidth, which is what's actually important for most user workloads these days. That's not even accounting for the performance of the GPU cores which can be used for a ton of multimedia workloads.
> more importantly it has enormous levels of memory and storage bandwidth, which is what's actually important for most user workloads these days. I've heard this tossed around a lot, but is there any evidence that it's actually true? I struggle to imagine a regular workload that benefits from 32gbps of bandwidth, much less a scenario where the average layman could saturate a 200gbps or 400gbps bus.
Since this is HN, many of us like… compiling, you know, stuff. It is a regular workload for many of us on here.
The main beneficiary of the M1 Max wide memory architecture appears to be the Haskell GHC compiler, which is very, very voracious when it comes to the memory consumption and the data bus width. Regular Haskell builds shift the data around at 35-40 Gbps on average, with the Haskell optimiser hovering around 50 Gpbs and easily peaking out at 65 Gbps on medium size projects. Since cabal (the Haskell build toolchain) for some reason can't fully utilise the «-j10» parameter, roughly a 1/2 of CPU cores are not utilised. Which means we can kick off another large Haskell build in parallel without affecting memory transfer speeds of the first build.
Rust release builds are a runner-up with 30-35 Gbps transfer speeds on average. Static type analysis and type inference in Haskell and Rust is hard, is complex and requires a lot of fast memory and benefits vastly from large CPU caches.
I have not attemped a Rust LTO build yet, but I would expect the LTO builds to like the wide memory bus, like, A LOT. In general, a LTO build (e.g. large C++ builds) is heavily memory bound and shifts data blocks, small and large, around extensively.
But an application is not very useful with a dataset, so many of us then like training our data models. Data model training can easily saturate 200 Gbps per a M1 Max CPU cluster.
Then the application needs to load the data in and usually do something with it. For example, issue complex queries to a graph database. Large CPU caches coupled with a wide data bus is a winner here.
All of the above are examples of real, practical and regular workloads.
Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
the fact is, apple hardware is not _that_ expensive relative to what you get for the money. Their supply chain is super optimized, and it's hard to beat them on price if a competitor decides to try (at the same quality that is).
What gives people the perception of apple being expensive is that other OEMs play tricks to boost numbers on a spec sheet that the common person checks while cheeping out massively on parts that don’t show on the spec sheet. I know someone who got an MSI laptop recently and it’s complete garbage. The screen casing cracked from the force of the hinge within months, the trackpad is borderline unusable, wifi is spotty,…
This is very real. I noticed that the Lenovo T14s has a noticeably better trackpad than the Lenovo T14, but you can't tell unless you try it out on both Notebooks as both are listed as "Mylar® surface multi-touch touchpad" on the spec sheet.