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Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#241

Post by DoingIsLearning »

rootusrootus wrote: post #100

As a little exercise, about once a day I take a pass through CNN or NPR, and then another through Fox News. Just to get a high level idea of what each side believes reality to be. It is fascinating how little overlap there is. For the most part I don't think people are really arguing with each other, they're just arguing with a straw man they have constructed to represent the opposition.

Looking in, from a non-US centric view, I just find it mind-boggling how sanguinary all the left/right trenches act and argue with each other.

[Which is doubly confused since your left would still be considered solidly right wing anywhere else in the world (bar maybe in Australia/Canada).]

If I think back to the early 90's CNN used to be regarded in the same light as the BBC or Reuters, with actual breaking news and world correspondents. Now it just looks like a pantomine of people deeply outraged about something inconsequential.

I don't know if it's the 24h news business model that is broken or if you actually have some sort of psy-ops going on trying to create division, but there seems to be a very vocal chunk of the US that is caught in some sort of outrage addiction.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#242

Post by lalaland1125 »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #204

I don't think that this is really a "trust problem". It's more of a misattribution problem. People think they know what the "other side" is thinking, but they really don't. Barely anyone "doubts the efficacy of coronavirus vaccines". This is a tiny, tiny, trivial minority. The main arguments I come across are some combination of: "coronavirus is a non issue for me, and so the efficacy of a vaccine is irrelevant" "cor…

Literally Fox News yesterday: https://twitter.com/NikkiMcR/status/1486154086877650945?t=Z4...

> The mRNA COVID vaccines need to be withdrawn from the market. No one should get them. No one should get boosted. No one should get double boosted. They are a dangerous and ineffective product at this point.

How is that not "doubting the efficacy of coronavirus vaccines"?

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#243

Post by mcntsh »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #80
romseb wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on how free speech has been weaponised by those in power?

By mass-publishing targeted misinformation backed by huge organisations, then claiming that anyone trying to limit their manipulation is undermining free speech.

"People with freedom are free to manipulate people" is such a dangerous perspective. People have actually been brainwashed to believe this... that freedom is dangerous.

Want to know how we should combat misinformation? Education.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#244

Post by epgui »

ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

Imagine you have free speech. Yay! Now what? Why was this so important again?

Free speech is not an end goal. It's a tool that serves a purpose. In the relationship between a powerful government and a collection of individually vulnerable citizens, it pushes the power balance farther toward the individual.

Is the goal to give all the power to the individual? No, that's not the goal. The goal is to have some sort of equilibrium between the powers of the government and the powers of individuals. The point of equilibrium is fuzzy and ill-defined, but it's characterized by an increase in stability.

The point is that free speech is not a sacred irreducible holy thing. It's an important thing that serves a purpose. It's not absolute. It's possible for something in a given situation to be more important than free speech.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#245

Post by epgui »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #107
ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

Without any curation, everyone would have to wade through tons of spam.

Exactly this. When it comes to your health, you are what you eat. Why do people think their brains are completely unaffected by their training set? You think what you read/hear.

We're just meat computers, and information hygiene (or the lack thereof) actually matters and has a big impact.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#246

Post by zpeti »

canadaduane wrote: post #135
throwawaygh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The status quo is a messy conflagration where initial beliefs were the brush, a combination of mental health issues and social frustration were the trees, and the perverse incentives of engagement metrics provided the high winds. So I'm in the awkward middle ground of believing it's counter-productive to try to shelter people from ideas but also believing that lots of people are very easy to manipulate, even so easy…

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this. One thought experiment that has helped me get my mind around the problem is "why is it necessary that parents shield children from some information?" I think free speech might have a context that is invisible to us. Something like a prior, or trained neural net, in which free speech and no censorship is absolutely the right thing. And then there might be other conte…

There is a difference between a child and an adult. We make that distinction for a reason, and we act differently for a reason.

A great analogy is to think of an eggshell with a chick inside. The eggshell provides protection for a long time but is also restrictive. When the chick is strong enough it will break free. But if it breaks free too early it won’t be strong enough to survive in the world.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#247

Post by rdtsc »

Nursie wrote: post #236
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if we let people decide for themselves, they might decide wrong! And our position is clearly and obviously right! But people are stupid and will listen to lies, so we have to remove the possibility of them being exposed to those lies! /s, in case it wasn't obvious... People are more certain of their own position than is warranted. This is true in politics (as C. S. Lewis said, in practice no policy can be more th…

The issue with that approach to me is you end up saying every piece of information is as valid as any other. We know some things are wrong, we have evidence that they're wrong, and believing in some of those things can cause people to take actions which endanger and even kill others. So what do you do? I'm not advocating censorship as a solution, but simply throwing up your hands and saying "who are you to judge?" is…

> We know some things are wrong, we have evidence that they're wrong, and believing in some of those things can cause people to take actions which endanger and even kill others.

It depends on the specific issue. But since we agreed we didn’t want censorship, we err on the side of caution present our evidence with hopefully better and more thorough research supporting it.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#248

Post by givemeethekeys »

dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

Fear leads to a loss of freedom.

When we're afraid, we give power to politicians that promise deal with it swiftly. Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking. Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it.

Has the war on terror stopped? No? When do we get to hop onto a plane without undressing ourselves?

Oh, but now there's a war against viruses? So you have to undress yourself and take a shot.

Next, there will be a war on climate change. You'll have to undress yourself, take a shot, and prove that you only took public transit to the airport, and that you haven't eaten beef for 48 hours prior because it leads to more gas from farts, which is bad for the environment.

When the next financial crisis hits (and it hasn't yet), and a large number of middle class people get wiped out again, there will be legislation to protect retail investors from the volatility of the stork market. You must go to a certified and licensed financial professional for your wealth planning.

The appropriate politician from the left or right will run for office and get voted in because when most people fear something, they vote against freedom.

/rant

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#249

Post by emptysongglass »

usernomdeguerre wrote: post #62
ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

Except that it works. In fact it works for a population of 5 times our size (China). So it seems to me that the only people who have their heads up their asses are us, who seem to think that censorship is a childs model for maintaining power and influence. In our technological society censorship can work better than ever before. Frankly, imo, in the absence of effective accountability for ones' words or deeds, censor…

It is a child's model. Look at how it is used by the ruling party. As a child with their toys. Look at the childish displays of outrage when we tell them you can't sexually abuse (and then disappear) your tennis players without consequences. Who even does that? "Oh, that toy said something mean to me so I threw it away." Adults don't do that, children do.

When we condemn slave labor it's more childish tantrums. That's what wolf warrior diplomacy is really.

It's a state of more than a billion under its care yet on the political stage it's a huge Akira-sized baby with a big toy baton smash-smash-smashing any who dare discipline it.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#250

Post by cloutchaser »

givemeethekeys wrote: post #248
dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

Fear leads to a loss of freedom. When we're afraid, we give power to politicians that promise deal with it swiftly. Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking. Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it. Has the war on terror stopped? No? When do we get to hop onto a plane without undressing ourselves? Oh, but now there's a war against viruses? So you have to undres…

While the right certainly had their fear based issues before the pandemic, it’s a bit of a stretch to say the left didn’t.

Trump was going to become a dictator. We had 12 years to go living on earth 4 years ago. Apparently almost everyone is a white supremacist… I could go on. Why didn’t Obama revoke the patriot act if he was so on the side of non fear? Or allow more whistleblowing.

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