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Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#71

Post by paulpauper »

commandlinefan wrote: post #52
paulpauper wrote: post #47

As bad as twitter and Facebook censorship is, it's worse for other sites, like Reddit or probably any v-bulletin forum. Reddit subs have soooo much moderation, especially any sub that that is even slightly popular, so many arbitrary and hidden rules and content guidelines. On twitter I can call someone a jerk and the worst that may happen is the person may block me, but that will get your banned from many reddit subs…

> Reddit subs have soooo much moderation Moderation I can live with. If some mod doesn't want me on their sub, I find another. It's the admin hammer bans of the subs I found that I object to.

reddit admis have vastly more power than fakebook or twitter content moderators. for one, reddit does not outsource their moderation.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#72

Post by ksdale »

usernomdeguerre wrote: post #62
ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

Except that it works. In fact it works for a population of 5 times our size (China). So it seems to me that the only people who have their heads up their asses are us, who seem to think that censorship is a childs model for maintaining power and influence. In our technological society censorship can work better than ever before. Frankly, imo, in the absence of effective accountability for ones' words or deeds, censor…

I think it's far too early to pass judgment on whether it works in China. Lots of very oppressive states have lasted for decades, apparently successfully, until they implode spectacularly.

Less than a century ago, many in the West sang the praises of communism as (unkown to them) a million people died in the Gulag. Things aren't always as they appear.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#73

Post by nathias »

It's not a problem, it's learning. We should have absolutely no trust in the current institutions. When people are openly lying in your face without any repercussions, openly stealing from you and just pay a small fine etc. why would anyone trust them?

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#74

Post by gtsop »

brnaftr361 wrote: post #40
gtsop wrote: post #5

Wait.. what? Society has a trust problem? Implying we should trust people in power (economic and state) that have repeatedly and shamelessly acted for their own benefit against the interest of the public while they control the media (tv and online) to censor and/or shaddow-ban criticism and alternate views? Yes, if that's what you mean. We have a trust problem because there are people in power who are not trustworthy…

I reckon it's a human condition issue, bare metal type shit. People, in general, simply can't possess the merits of blind trust and must be scrutinized. This striated opinion on a spectrum of trust, and in time resolution in to facts. Dialectics of account. Naive interventions only stand to exacerbate the condition, by my reckoning, and I don't suspect there is a real way to make smart interventions at scale. I think…

I like your statement overall but let me hone a bit on this:

> I reckon it's a human condition issue, bare metal type shit

I strongly disagree here. It is very common and easy (and to me, boring) to promote all hard-to-solve, ugly problems to concequences of the evil "human nature" without even any data to support it.

Antithetically, humans want to trust. that's why a group operating within a trusted environment outperform a group operating in an emvironment without trust. Also, that's why trust is a possitive attribute.

The issue causing this trust problem at this great scale is conflicting interests, emerging from the private-centric properties of the economy. Because if you really dig it, all these issues will lead you to economy. Noone lost trust in a government because the President lied about their favourite colour.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#75

Post by throwawaygh »

numtel wrote: post #36
ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

> No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. I would contend that profit is at least partially the intention of these actors, largely indirectly by people who are invested in stock markets. Capitalism is a symptom of power and information asymmetries. A few years ago, Zuckerberg said that all problems would be solved if everybody told the truth all the time. It's not that simple though.…

I think this is absolutely right, and wish that discussions on this topic would focus more on the externalities of profit-seeking platforms than free speech principles.

Free speech absolutists tend to jump to the defense of free speech and in the process ignore a real problem. Pro-censorship/content moderation folks tend to jump to the defense of censorship/moderation. In the process, the debate gets framed around "speech vs. censorship" instead of the serious issues with our political commons being dominated by sophisticated profit-seeking entities.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#76

Post by gtsop »

OrvalWintermute wrote: post #51
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Trust in social media and traditional media is at an all-time low. Yeah, some of it is "people in power". And some isn't. But when you say > Yes, if that's what you mean. you sure look like you're trying to ignore what the article actually says, and twist the general idea to fit the axe you want to grind. That kind of stunt is (part of) why trust in society is low.

I think some of this debacle is changing who we trust. Joe Rogan is rapidly becoming "the most trusted man in America". Russell Brand, another Leftist comedian, is moving from funny routines to scathing anti-corruption populist commentary. Tucker Carlson is now dominating Cable. The big Pharma ad-supported mainstream media is rightly terrified of this. The gravy train is at risk.

> The big Pharma ad-supported mainstream media is rightly terrified of this. The gravy train is at risk.

Spot on

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#77

Post by zionic »

commandlinefan wrote: post #52
paulpauper wrote: post #47

As bad as twitter and Facebook censorship is, it's worse for other sites, like Reddit or probably any v-bulletin forum. Reddit subs have soooo much moderation, especially any sub that that is even slightly popular, so many arbitrary and hidden rules and content guidelines. On twitter I can call someone a jerk and the worst that may happen is the person may block me, but that will get your banned from many reddit subs…

> Reddit subs have soooo much moderation Moderation I can live with. If some mod doesn't want me on their sub, I find another. It's the admin hammer bans of the subs I found that I object to.

Not when it’s a major hub-sub for a topic. A rogue moderator can take something like /r/spacex and completely ruin it then ban anyone who disagrees, to the point that people have to make stuff like /r/spacexlounge to have a functional community.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#78

Post by [deleted] »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

The problem is the government and traditional media have been caught lying again and again. Once that trust is broken I don't know how you rebuild it. Hell people I commonly talk to still believe a police officer was beaten to death on 1/6 and that people, other then the women shot for trying to enter the chambers, died directly due to the riot. All because of that what the news reported and quietly fixed days later…

[deleted]

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#79

Post by autokad »

numtel wrote: post #36
ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

> No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. I would contend that profit is at least partially the intention of these actors, largely indirectly by people who are invested in stock markets. Capitalism is a symptom of power and information asymmetries. A few years ago, Zuckerberg said that all problems would be solved if everybody told the truth all the time. It's not that simple though.…

> Capitalism is a symptom of power and information asymmetries

if you want to talk about power and information asymmetries, I suggest you look at Communist regimes.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#80

Post by AussieWog93 »

romseb wrote: post #44
AussieWog93 wrote: post #38

Reading the comments here, I get the impression that a lot of folks view censorship as a tool of oppression by those in power and free speech as the shield against it. If the past 10 years have taught us anything, it's that both "free speech" and censorship can be weaponised by those in power who wish to manipulate the discourse for their own personal gain. If we want regular folks to have a greater say in public dis…

Can you elaborate on how free speech has been weaponised by those in power?

By mass-publishing targeted misinformation backed by huge organisations, then claiming that anyone trying to limit their manipulation is undermining free speech.
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