Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates • Hacker News Board

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#941

Post by keithnz » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 4:40 AM UTC

animal_spirits wrote: post #677

dahfizz wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the data shows they don't matter. Source? Because the CDC says otherwise. > In the first full week of October, vaccinated New Yorkers with a prior Covid-19 case were 19.8 times less likely to catch the virus than their unvaccinated and uninfected peers, whereas people who were unvaccinated but previously infected were 14.7 times less likely, and vaccinated but uninfected New Yorkers were just 4.5 times less…

I think what they are suggesting is that natural immunity + vaccine is also more protective than just natural immunity

yes, vaccine + natural immunity gives you super immunity by a large factor, they also found that it doesn't matter if you get the virus, then get vaccinated, or get vaccinated then get the virus, you'll end up with super immunity.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#942

Post by ifyoubuildit » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 4:53 AM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #886

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This response is actually an example of what I'm talking about. The comment that I replied to was explaining how the segment of the population that is a candidate for giving themselves covid while being high risk is (and has been) shrinking out of existence. Meanwhile, there is a much larger (and growing) cohort that continues to be harrased if they (fairly) decide they don't need these vaccines, and the harrasment i…

Until the people hoarding ICU beds and grinding medical staff into the ground are no longer disproportionately unvaccinated COVID patients, I don't see anyone caring too much about the distinction.

> ... I don't see anyone caring too much about the distinction.

I think you're absolutely right, which is why I'm here banging this drum. People should care about the distinction, because it matters if you want to actually understand the situation.

Certain groups are overrepresented in the prison system in the US. Some people think this means that all members of those groups are bad people. The people who think this are poorly informed, and can only get in the way of solving the actual problems.

And no, I'm not equating the treatment of unvaccinated people to that of minorities in the US. I am equating the structure of the misunderstanding involved (disadvantaged minority + other problems describes a lot of prisoners, but its the other problems that dominate the equation. Just like unvaccinated + seronaive can describe a hospitalized patient, but the seronaive part is what matters).

I tried to explain this better in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30096072

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#943

Post by Zanni » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 4:59 AM UTC

timr wrote: post #713

bonzini wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not say that prior infection does not reduce severe outcome. It does but _it does not change the fact_ that the severe outcomes are much more rare among vaccinated people. This means that there are still too few people with prior infection, for this to be an important factor in policy making. It will be once the proportion of unvaccinated people in hospitals starts to resemble the proportion in the general popu…

You said: > Given this data the most effective strategy is to just vaccinate everyone without what is effectively a pointless distinction The data clearly shows that protection from natural infection is at least as substantial as from vaccination, and that ~half (if not more) of the US population has had it. This fairly obviously impacts the most effective strategy. Mandating vaccines (and now boosters) in young, hea…

Your logic here is flawed. Even if you've already had covid, the vaccine will give you more protection. That's good. We can't do the reverse (give deliberate natural immunity to those who are already infected), but that's no reason to say that natural immunity is "good enough." That goes for the individual as well as society. Would you decline airbags because seatbelts as effective?

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#944

Post by jjeaff » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:00 AM UTC

throw_nbvc1234 wrote: post #796

rcpt wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drug overdoses, attempted suicides and actual suicides are way up, for example. Drug abuse is way up. Child abuse is way up. Just to be clear, you're saying that the reason we've seen hundreds of thousands of excess deaths last year is because of drugs, suicides, and child abuse.

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/historical-fatalit... https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/mortality-dashboard.htm# If people want to explore some "crude" (CDC's word) data by age group. Cherry-picking some data, there were 10-15 times more drug overdoses then covid deaths in 2020 (Q2-3) for 25-34. Similar ratios for 15-24. And I'm sure it'll be the exact opposite for higher age groups or if you focused on pe…

There are 10-15 times more drug overdoses than COVID, but there arent significantly more overdoses than previous years. Some increase, but it looks like a steady increase.

In other words, excess death counts would account for overdose deaths because they are expected. They wouldn't be considered "excess" deaths.

The numbers I have seen for excess deaths pretty closely match COVID death numbers as counted from death certificates. So you have two unconnected sources matching up pretty closely. I'd say there is a good chance the near million COVID deaths number we are looking at is pretty close.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#945

Post by kodah » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:04 AM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #654

bonzini wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why are they so adamant to vaccinate those with prior infection Because the data shows they don't matter. This is the same thing as deaths due to covid vs. deaths while positive to covid. Sure some people might have been miscounted as covid deaths but actually died due to cancer/car accident/whatever. Despite this the excess deaths over the past two years is much higher than the number of covid deaths; thus showing…

> Because the data shows they don't matter. Source? Because the CDC says otherwise. > In the first full week of October, vaccinated New Yorkers with a prior Covid-19 case were 19.8 times less likely to catch the virus than their unvaccinated and uninfected peers, whereas people who were unvaccinated but previously infected were 14.7 times less likely, and vaccinated but uninfected New Yorkers were just 4.5 times less…

Some anecdotes:

I got COVID before there were vaccines and I've received all three shots. While all of my friends caught Omicron, I have not - and I'm the only one among them who got sick beforehand. On the other hand, I have an unvaccinated coworker who has now gotten Delta and Omicron. I know that doesn't prove anything, but it also doesn't make these studies I see any more illuminating either.

As an aside, I'm not even sure I want things to go back to "normal" other than lifted travel restrictions and the anger/frustration/callout culture to go away. Restaurants taking over the streets, working from home, less cars, etc have all been a boon for the way I live my life.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#946

Post by jjeaff » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:07 AM UTC

eloff wrote: post #631

nu11ptr wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies in advance for getting on my soapbox, but this has been on my mind for a while. The way in which the media has gotten everyone to say "the unvaccinated" is a 'disease' against basic science (not even getting into the divisive nature of this). I would go as far as saying if you read any paper, study, or other that refers to the "unvaccinated" as a single cohort, you are reading vaccine propaganda, not scienc…

I've also noticed this. I have covid right now. I'm double vaccinated. I was planning to get my booster shot, but now that I've had covid what's the point. It's not likely to increase my immunity and it comes with risks. At some point the government will probably change the definition of fully vaccinated to three shots and then I'll be in that unvaccinated group I usually make fun of. Somebody I know lost their job b…

It's not true that no distinction is made for natural immunity. The CDC guidelines consider natural immunity from confirmed covid cases as valid for 90 days. That may not match the science, but policy has to trail the science as well as balance the science with public policy strategy.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#947

Post by salawat » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:14 AM UTC

bonzini wrote: post #847

PickledHotdog wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>died due to cancer/car accident The WHO definition of a covid death means that they can only be counted as covid deaths if there's a clinical link between cause of death and covid. Ergo, cancer and car accident victims with covid wouldn't be counted. I suppose it depends on how your country defines it and if it follows WHO guidelines

Correct, that's why I characterized them as miscounts. There are popular theories about thousands of such miscounts happening to get more money from the government, but it makes no sense for them to be more than a small minority of mistakes.

>There are popular theories about thousands of such miscounts happening to get more money from the government, but it makes no sense for them to be more than a small minority of mistakes.

Show me profit motive, and I'll show you an audit worth doing. If you've not parsed and checked that data, I'd recommend not passing judgement on it. The market can stay irrational longer than you can remain solvent.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#948

Post by bleuchase » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:19 AM UTC

odiroot wrote: post #620

andrewclunn wrote: post #91

> “The only way to get compliance from people and get accommodation [is] if we demonstrate the ability to withdraw these [mandates] in the same manner in which we put them in,” Gottlieb added. Nope. That line was crossed a long time ago. I can't imagine people suddenly regaining trust in pharma companies and health care agencies now because they backed off at this point.

I do trust pharma companies now, more than ever. They offered us a way out of this mess, after all. On the other hand, I do trust the politicians much less.

> They offered us a way out of this mess, after all.

An unending series of shots, mandates, and other restrictions is “a way out”? What are you smoking?

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#949

Post by aakresearch » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:24 AM UTC

tamaharbor wrote: post #929

Why are people so afraid of something that has less than 0.01% of killing them? I am living my life as normally as I can, yet I am unvaccinated and rarely ever wear a mask. I feel mankind has handled this poorly, and has created many more unnecessary problems. I wish more people would join me, living life to its fullest. This thing will only be over when WE decide it is.

I am with you. I have looked at age distribution of covid deaths multiple times and it seems to me that the risk is roughly the same as the background probability of dying from any cause within a year as presented here: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html.

The number corresponding to my age from that table is around 1/300. Doubling that doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'd probably start being slightly concerned once the background probability reaches 1%, i.e. at the age of about 60. Now, as someone obese with hypertension and pre-diabetes, I am sure my covid risk is somewhat higher, but still immaterial in light of my background risk, which is much, much, much higher. It is the latter that I should be working on, and what I'm trying to do when suicide ideation and the madness of mask and vax mandates momentarily loses it's grip on me. I am absolutely livid that those who set up these rules to combat the minuscule probability all but ensure that real big probabilities for many people will grow even bigger. Talk about penny-wise and pound-foolish. For some reason they do not even acknowledge that concerns other than covid exist, that are absolutely dwarfing their fearmongering despite all their trying.

The message I am hearing from covid-enthusiasts is: "You're rubbish, crazy, mental nutjob. Your problems are imaginary, and if you die tomorrow from your own hand, good riddance! Our fully vaxed percentage will go higher, for the common good."

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#950

Post by ls15 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:24 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

> The only question really then is how fast do we want the unvaccinated to do the getting antibodies by getting COVID thing.

I think the question that so many people forget is how fast the unvaccinated themselves want to get antibodies, not how fast someone else wants to get them antibodies.

> I'd say the answer to that should be determined by the hospital capacity. If a region has sufficient hospital capacity that it would not be overwhelmed by the increase in COVID cases among the unvaccinated go ahead and lift most restrictions.

Im my country, Germany, that currently is debating mandatory vaccinations for everyone, the maximum average share of Covid patients was 5% at the top of the most deadly Covid wave. 95% of patients were in for other reasons.

https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/fileadmin/Dateie...

> Gemessen an der vorhandenen Bettenkapazität ergibt sich eine durchschnittliche Belegungsquote von 1,3% durch COVID-19. Die höchsten tagesbezogenen Belegungsquoten gab es in der zweiten Dezemberhälfte mit knapp 5% aller Betten.

I don't want to have to undergo medical procedures, just for optimizing a statistic by a very small percentage (for two weeks in a year) that could have been optimized in other ways. Some pointless covid intervations at national level have burned so much money that nations could have built thousands of new hospitals instead.