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Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

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Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#851

Post by yehosef »

nu11ptr wrote: post #571
tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

Apologies in advance for getting on my soapbox, but this has been on my mind for a while. The way in which the media has gotten everyone to say "the unvaccinated" is a 'disease' against basic science (not even getting into the divisive nature of this). I would go as far as saying if you read any paper, study, or other that refers to the "unvaccinated" as a single cohort, you are reading vaccine propaganda, not scienc…

Thanks for saying this. Science is dead.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#852

Post by listenallyall »

windexh8er wrote: post #823
listenallyall wrote: post #798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that highly subjective, however? Two people show up to the hospital feeling equally lousy, both test positive for Omicron. First guy says he's vaxxed and boosted, doc suggests he's fully protected, this is the worst of it, go home and rest up (which is exactly what a doctor told my father). Second guy says nope, I'm unvaxxed. Doc is probably going to admit this guy overnight for observation. Multiply by tens of…

Except that with your second example the hospital isn't going to admit the patient for simply "feeling lousy". So, no, the assertion that this is how that stat has become inflated is not the actual cause.

I think you are purposely attempting to divert from the main point. Consider "lousy" to be, say, a 102 fever, persistent cough, and inability to taste anything. And then both test positive, as I stated. The unvaxxed guy is likely to be admitted, at least for observation.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#853

Post by reaperducer »

tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

I'd say the answer to that should be determined by the hospital capacity. If a region has sufficient hospital capacity that it would not be overwhelmed by the increase in COVID cases among the unvaccinated go ahead and lift most restrictions.

I don't think you're breaking any new ground here. In the two regions where I've lived since the outbreak, hospital capacity was already a factor in what precautions were mandated.

But the spread of disease is a lot more complicated than sick/not sick. It has an affect on society much farther and wider than hospital capacity, and that should not be the sold yardstick by which we measure our reaction.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#854

Post by rfrey »

eli wrote: post #717
dahfizz wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the data shows they don't matter. Source? Because the CDC says otherwise. > In the first full week of October, vaccinated New Yorkers with a prior Covid-19 case were 19.8 times less likely to catch the virus than their unvaccinated and uninfected peers, whereas people who were unvaccinated but previously infected were 14.7 times less likely, and vaccinated but uninfected New Yorkers were just 4.5 times less…

I don't think your math is correct there and that data is pre-Omicron. https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/232698/omicron-largely-evade... estimates that prior infection offered 85% protection against Delta but only 19% against Omicron.

The vaccines also offer very little protection against infection by Omicron, and less with the B.2 variant.

Definitely not saying vaccines aren't important - they keep you out of hospital! But they don't prevent infection post Delta.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#855

Post by indymike »

ipaddr wrote: post #834
mlac wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? That might mean we’re approaching herd immunity and critical mass for vaccinated people in the population, which would be fantastic.

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data#casesByVaccinationStatus

8% of the population in the paper are not vaccinated.

27% of hospitalizations are not vaccinated.

~50% of ICU cases are not vaccinated.

The conclusion is that people are bad at understanding statistics.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#856

Post by tzs »

nostromo wrote: post #639
buryat wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

simple numbers show that unvaccinated get covid at higher rates and the number of hospitalizations is higher which puts strain on the hospitals. If something happens to me I dont want an unvaccinated taking a spot I need.

What about smokers? What about the obese? What about people who took risks and acquired HIV?

The probability density function (PDF) for being hospitalized due to smoking or obesity is very wide but not tall. The PDF for being hospitalized due to COVID is not wide but is tall.

It is things with not wide but tall PDFs that cause problems with hospital capacity because it generally takes a fairly long time to increase hospital capacity.

Things with very wide but not tall PDFs are much easier to deal with because you've got years to build up capacity for them and that increased capacity will be needed for decades. The latter is important because it means a young person can look at that increased long term need and choose a career in healthcare knowing that the demand will still be there 10-14 years later when they've finished school and residency and will still be their long enough to see them through their entire career.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#857

Post by dragonwriter »

reedjosh wrote: post #848
SCHiM wrote: post #805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but in my opinion that is a silly thing to believe. I'm assuming you're from a liberal democracy, what if I told you you could have _your_ name on the (local) ballot next time a $LOCAL vote comes around? The government, for the most part, is not an evil cabal of deep state cultists (in most countries that describe themselves as liberal today). People like you or me can join a party, and then get elected within…

Sure, I could end up voted in as the mayor of a small town. That's nothing like making it into congress. A small town mayor has none of the power a member of congress would. In democracy the larger the seat, the larger the infrastructure required to get there. The funding of this infrastructure brings the necessity of corruption.

> A small town mayor has none of the power a member of congress would.

Assuming the mayor is in an executive mayor system (not a council-manager) system, they often have far more practical power than a member of Congress over any issue, but their power is over smaller issues. Even in a council-manager system, the mayor (who is a primus inter pares council member) is more likely than member of Congress to have decisive power over any issue within their ambit.

(Also, being a small town mayor, or similar local officer, is not an uncommon way to build the infrastructure for becoming, say a state legislator. And that's a way to build the infrastructure for Congress, and that for Senate/Governorship, and that for the Presidency.)

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#858

Post by spookthesunset »

beams_of_light wrote: post #314
parkingrift wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Great! The problem is that vaccines don't protect society unless a critical-mass of people are vaccinated. They don't protect society at all. The herd immunity goal flew out the window with Delta and left the galaxy with Omicron. We will not ever eradicate Covid-19 with vaccination. >It ends when the the threat subsides. It should end right now, then. The threat has subsided. We have vaccines and other treatment pro…

Eradication is not the goal. Making sure hospitals aren't overwhelmed with COVID patients is the goal. Catching COVID is potentially dangerous and often times results in long recovery window. Vaccination is harmless and works. The thread will never subside; this is a new virus we will have to live with for the rest of our lives - especially considering we can't seem to get everyone to do the right thing, even with go…

> Making sure hospitals aren't overwhelmed with COVID patients is the goal.

So fix the capacity issue and your problem is solved without toxic, corrosive and highly controversial government mandates with dubious efficacy. I mean, thus far they've had 2 years to fix the "overwhelmed with COVID patients" problem so we wouldn't have to do all this. At this point it's all just excuses. What gives?

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#859

Post by spookthesunset »

crackercrews wrote: post #270
donohoe wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm vaccinated and boostered by my own choice Great! The problem is that vaccines don't protect society unless a critical-mass of people are vaccinated. The estimate for COVID-19 is that roughly 70% to 85% of the population will need to be vaccinated to reach the herd immunity threshold. USA is at about 63% fully vaccinated (76% had at least one dose). where does it end? It ends when the the threat subsides. Why this…

> The people you elect to represent you (for those of us with a democracy-like government) The problem is that so many elected officials don't abide by the rules that they push. Joe Biden, Gavin Newsom, Nancy Pelosi, London Breed, etc. When the powerful can ignore their own rules, they're more likely to enact sweeping mandates.

> The problem is that so many elected officials don't abide by the rules that they push

Not a single "expert" or government official who pushed these mandates lost their income or livelihood. Many live in big houses and have the financial means to enjoy themselves regardless of their own restrictions.

In my opinion every "expert" and politician should have lost their paycheck the day they enacted this stuff. All these "work from home" people too--none of what most HN readers do is "essential" so they should have been shut down even if they could work from home. If the playing field was level, perhaps more people in positions of power would have questioned things. It takes an incredible amount of privilege to do virtually any of what we did over the last two years.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#860

Post by terminatornet »

> “The only way to get compliance from people and get accommodation [is] if we demonstrate the ability to withdraw these [mandates] in the same manner in which we put them in,” Gottlieb added.

The only way to get people to wear masks and get vaccinated is to not make them wear masks or get vaccinated.

Also, didn't we just do this 9 months ago where cases were decreasing, everyone got vaccinated and the CDC said we could burn our masks since vaccines meant we couldn't spread the virus? Looking forward to our yearly "covid is over" every spring for the rest of my life.

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