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Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

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Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think they value freedom. I think it’s mostly a cult following. People made their decision then looked for reasons to support it.

This type of thinking is the core of the problem. Both sides ascribe the worst to the other. "They're just too stupid to realize why I'm right!" Get off your high horse.

Why do you think I’m on a high horse?

People complaining about masks taking away freedom don’t seem to be rioting about freedom of drinking and driving as an example.

I’m all for freedom. Heck I donate to EFF and ACLU annually. I’m also for personal responsibility when it affects others as we live in a society.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#423
post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

> I'd say the answer to that should be determined by the hospital capacity. If a region has sufficient hospital capacity that it would not be overwhelmed by the increase in COVID cases among the unvaccinated go ahead and lift most restrictions.

You forget the second order effect here: the more unvaccinated people hospitals have to treat, the more likely their nurses and doctors are to quit, even if "the hospital is not overloaded". The more likely they are to quit, the more likely people are to die of other preventable causes in the future (because once they're burned and quit, they're not coming back).

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You becoming obese doesn’t affect me the way you catching Covid does. Yes obesity eats up healthcare resources as well but not to the degree and certainly not as quickly as Covid cases do.

Obesity is the #1 reason covid is a problem though. And metabolic syndrome, nearly the same thing.

True but my colleague become obese doesn’t make me obese by working next to him. (Unless he insists on sharing all his snacks lol. Even then I have a choice)

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#425

Good article here about "endemic" and the still large problems that portend: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x > The word ‘endemic’ has become one of the most misused of the pandemic. And many of the errant assumptions made encourage a misplaced complacency. It doesn’t mean that COVID-19 will come to a natural end. > In other words, a disease can be endemic and both widespread and deadly. Malaria kil…

Something can be endemic and deadly and still something we accept the consequences of without government imposed restrictions. For example: HIV is something that is now endemic and (still) deadly. And yet we don't go around forcibly shutting down gay bathhouses, bars, and Grindr and implementing condom and prep mandates, even though they would be effective at reducing its spread. And for good reason: it'd be a massiv…

I mostly agree, but I think the core difference with HIV is how it's transmitted. You're more in control of your transmission risk.

That's less true with Covid given its contagiousness through the air.

I'm of the opinion that private companies have every right to require restrictions they see fit. I'm more mixed about government restrictions now that we're post vaccine (with the exception that requiring vaccine mandates for healthcare workers seems reasonable).

What gets to me about this whole thing is it's not binary but people often talk like it is (probably just political tribalism).

Vaccinated people who are infected spread the disease like the unvaccinated, that's true - but since vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected on exposure things like the vaccine mandates for restaurant entry do have an affect and are not just theater. They reduce the overall probability of positive people in the restaurant.

I think people like Bret Weinstein have done a lot of harm and I'm often surprised by the extent to which intelligence is independent from accuracy.

It's really interesting in the context of this book review: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret...

Basically, the argument in that is a little reason (incompletely applied or understood) can be a dangerous thing and blindly following consensus is sometimes the adaptive behavior. It's a little misapplied to vaccines since in that case someone did actually know the details and understand the mechanism, but it's possible for a cultural understanding to be entirely selected by natural selection and the reason for it was never understood by anyone!

When we see animals do complex behavior we don't usually assume it's because they understand fully why that mechanism is adaptive, but we often misapply this understanding to ourselves.

Mostly getting off topic, but I thought this was an interesting thing to think about.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obesity is one of the big contributors to Covid infections that require complex hospital care. The two are linked. That's why I think vaccination schemes that offered free food were undermining the "following the science" bit. As was the banning of the popular "Parkrun" in the UK, which is a collective outdoor exercise event, during the lockdown. So many policies have undermined the "follow the science" bit in my min…

one run and one meal is not gonna make or break someones weight. one vaccine might save their life

You edited your comment.

> one run and one meal is not gonna make or break someones weight

On the contrary, we have had two years of this pandemic. Government messaging could have been a lot stronger on the benefits of exercise. That's 2 years for people to become healthier.

And "one vaccine" has turned into one vaccine plus boosters. Everyone is going to get Covid at some point. General fitness will remain one of the best long term ways of combating the virus.

The Parkrun is a weekly occurrence, and is popular even for those who do not have an interest in exercise as a hobby, as it is informal. As such, it acts as an important gateway to a healthier lifestyle.

I'm by no means alone in seeing banning it as counterproductive, and not "following the science".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59816344

If the government wants to serverely curtail individual liberties, then I expect good reasons for doing so. It's not good to encourage blind adherance to illogical policies.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#427
post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

“ It has killed more than 865,000 Americans, the vast majority unvaccinated.” Could someone please put a number on “vast majority”? I keep hearing this adage but a majority is 51% and there’s a big range between 51 and 100% that a word like “vast” doesn’t precisely capture..

I would guess something like 5-25%, but it's a subjective term, so who knows.

Table 1 on page 3 has unvaccinated covid deaths at ~20% of the total.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/pdfs/mm7104e2-h.pdf

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Great! The problem is that vaccines don't protect society unless a critical-mass of people are vaccinated. They don't protect society at all. The herd immunity goal flew out the window with Delta and left the galaxy with Omicron. We will not ever eradicate Covid-19 with vaccination. >It ends when the the threat subsides. It should end right now, then. The threat has subsided. We have vaccines and other treatment pro…

Eradication is not the goal. Making sure hospitals aren't overwhelmed with COVID patients is the goal. Catching COVID is potentially dangerous and often times results in long recovery window. Vaccination is harmless and works. The thread will never subside; this is a new virus we will have to live with for the rest of our lives - especially considering we can't seem to get everyone to do the right thing, even with go…

> Vaccination is harmless

Oh please, if you want to say it's low-risk, or lower-risk than catching covid, go ahead. But don't just assert outright falsities.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#429
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have discrimination in medical care its called 'triage', unfortunately it doesn't involved removing care once granted. We also charge smokers more for health care due to the burden they put on the system, yet another form of discrimination. You're also making the naive mistake of relating a stable system (smokers with health issues) with an unstable system (covid patients). These two types of systems have…

Then go charge more for those who are at risk and reject the recommendation for vaccine. I'd argue that would be a lot more effective (and fair) to get people to vaccinate then any of the current sociopolitical pressure and ostracization.

But we could already charge more for certain things like being overweight and cover this issue anyway. IMO if your BMI is over a certain amount you should probably be required to take a Covid vaccine, but not everyone.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#430

Good article here about "endemic" and the still large problems that portend: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x > The word ‘endemic’ has become one of the most misused of the pandemic. And many of the errant assumptions made encourage a misplaced complacency. It doesn’t mean that COVID-19 will come to a natural end. > In other words, a disease can be endemic and both widespread and deadly. Malaria kil…

All of this is true, and none of it contradicts anything in the grandparent post.
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