The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out • Hacker News Board

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#151

Post by foxfluff » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #134

choeger wrote: post #18

We are long beyond that point, sadly. We are right now in the process of a) becoming legally required to own and carry a particular kind of device and b) being legally unable to fully control said device and c) having that device explicitly working (again by legal requirement) against our own interests It will be interesting to watch how things will progress and whether governments or corporations will be the ones ho…

No we aren't. I don't have to buy a phone. Yes, the apps make the border easier for Covid, but don't be ridiculous. I can fallback to filling out a piece of paper. Furthermore, I can buy an [PinePhone, Librem 5, etc] phone and "fully control" that. As for c) that's been part of life since the government got the right to tap your phone or telegraph. Right now there are troubling signs for the direction of American dem…

Did you try running banking apps on the PinePhone?

My bank has made it (almost) impossible to make payments without a phone, btw. Either you need to receive SMS messages or use their proprietary app. I could receive SMS messages without a phone but I would expect this to be a solution that eventually gives me more trouble than it's worth.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#152

Post by the-dude » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

growse wrote: post #139

digisign wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A smart-phone of one of the two supported corporate-controlled OSs, iOS or Android.

So then what's the law referenced in 'A' that requires me to buy and carry around a smartphone?

In NL I have to show a QR code to enter certain facilities.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#153

Post by Beltalowda » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

drcongo wrote: post #141

NeuNeurosis wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there is an interesting history to passports. This article does a decent job of outlining how they morphed from a tool to help fight the Spanish Flu to what we see today. https://apposition.substack.com/p/papers-please Also there is quite a bit of economic work that showcases the positive impact of removing such stringent barriers to the free movement of people.

Of course, restricting people's movement across imaginary borders is very silly indeed. The point I was making is, I see plenty of frothing about vaccine passports, but not one single one of those people having conniptions about them is able to articulate what they would enable a government to do that they can't do already with your normal passport, driving license, tax ID etc.

The difference is that passports are only required for fairly rare activities (international travel, certain kinds of government interactions), whereas COVID passports are required for a lot of every-day things.

A driving license is a license is a certification that you've proven yourself capable to meet the minimum requirements to operate a potentially dangerous device, and more akin to doctor's license, lawyer license, etc. I don't think it's really the same thing.

My concern isn't really with "government can do $evil_stuff", but more in the general restriction of things.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#154

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:41 PM UTC

choeger wrote: post #18

We are long beyond that point, sadly. We are right now in the process of a) becoming legally required to own and carry a particular kind of device and b) being legally unable to fully control said device and c) having that device explicitly working (again by legal requirement) against our own interests It will be interesting to watch how things will progress and whether governments or corporations will be the ones ho…

[deleted]

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#155

Post by throwawaygh » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

choeger wrote: post #18

We are long beyond that point, sadly. We are right now in the process of a) becoming legally required to own and carry a particular kind of device and b) being legally unable to fully control said device and c) having that device explicitly working (again by legal requirement) against our own interests It will be interesting to watch how things will progress and whether governments or corporations will be the ones ho…

What in the world...?!

What's in everyone's coffee this morning?

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#156

Post by wbl » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #53

Snowden is twitting from Moscow. Russians in a similar position have been formally labeled "foreign agents", imprisoned, or worse. I'm wondering how Snowden managed to avoid a similar fate.

I don't wonder that hard about it. It's clear that he is dependent on staying in Putin's good graces to remain a free man.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#157

Post by philipkglass » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:44 PM UTC

buscoquadnary wrote: post #49

azangru wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This fills me with dread, resentment and anger. I wanted a future where I would be the master of technology, and what I am getting instead is more of the "I can't let you do this, Dave" vibe. I want to live in a community of individuals, not be subjugated to whatever happens to feed the anxieties and neuroses of society. Is there... will there be a way to resist this obscenity?

It's interesting you say that I've recently started reading Dune, and one point that I found interesting was that the Butlerian Jihad was not a revolution where they swore of the machines who had become malicious against them but rather that some humans were using the machines to oppress other humans and that is what led to the Jihad. I find it interesting that all these technologies that are supposed to make our liv…

I don't think that Butlerian Jihad is a solution because, apart from authorial fiat in fiction, groups willing to use intelligent machines will not be ruled over by forces unwilling to use intelligent machines. It's like positing a future where a coalition of crossbow-using armies defeats armies that use rifles and then imposes a comprehensive ban on rifles.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#158

Post by throwawaygh » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:44 PM UTC

foxfluff wrote: post #151

3pt14159 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No we aren't. I don't have to buy a phone. Yes, the apps make the border easier for Covid, but don't be ridiculous. I can fallback to filling out a piece of paper. Furthermore, I can buy an [PinePhone, Librem 5, etc] phone and "fully control" that. As for c) that's been part of life since the government got the right to tap your phone or telegraph. Right now there are troubling signs for the direction of American dem…

Did you try running banking apps on the PinePhone? My bank has made it (almost) impossible to make payments without a phone, btw. Either you need to receive SMS messages or use their proprietary app. I could receive SMS messages without a phone but I would expect this to be a solution that eventually gives me more trouble than it's worth.

> My bank has made it (almost) impossible to make payments without a phone, btw

My bank has several buildings full of people, all within driving distance of my house. Any of those people will happily accept a stack of paper bills.

If you don't want to use digital forms of payment, why on earth are you using a bank that doesn't have physical branches located near your home?

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#159

Post by giantrobot » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:46 PM UTC

the-dude wrote: post #152

growse wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then what's the law referenced in 'A' that requires me to buy and carry around a smartphone?

In NL I have to show a QR code to enter certain facilities.

Which can be printed on paper?

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#160

Post by SCHiM » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:46 PM UTC

core-utility wrote: post #26

choeger wrote: post #18

We are long beyond that point, sadly. We are right now in the process of a) becoming legally required to own and carry a particular kind of device and b) being legally unable to fully control said device and c) having that device explicitly working (again by legal requirement) against our own interests It will be interesting to watch how things will progress and whether governments or corporations will be the ones ho…

The TV show Upload [1] has a group of people dubbed the "Ludds" (i.e. Luddites) that refuse to be party to the turn that the technological revolution has taken and stick to traditional ways of doing things. I strongly believe if that were to happen in our world today, much of Silicon Valley would be "Ludds", while a mass of non-tech people would happily welcome our new technological overlords. [1]: https://www.imdb.c…

I'm about as technical as it is possible to get. I fucking hate technology these days. It all sucks, it tries to insert itself between everything human and sane, and extract value for its masters. People are serfs in closed silos. They own nothing, just like the serfs of old: not their farmlands or cattle (laptops, phones and data), nor their homes (accounts in the 'cloud' subject to AI shutdown without human recourse).

It will take a while of it getting progressively worse before an apathetic consumer class will finally be exploited enough to start demanding proper rules around all of this. I don't think progress will stop when the situation at it's worst. But I do think we'll have to get through that first.