'What you can not measure, you an not improve.'
What is the objective measurement of a successful meditation?
Meditation and the Unconscious
111–120 of 122 posts
Re: Meditation and the Unconscious
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
For some trauma-laden people, meditation can be quite a (bad) trip. I used to have horrible trauma flashbacks during meditation sessions. I would be getting into a calmer state, able to let go of anxiety, stress, daily minute thoughts, and after some quiet time, I'd be in a terrible state, with horrible memories surfacing. I definitely recommend not doing it alone if your childhood was painful. Same for yoga and long…
For sure. I'm training to be a MBSR (Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction) teacher and one of the things that is being stressed to us is the importance of providing loads of guidance / filtering when getting people to get involved - if there is significant trauma (and a whole bunch of other things including substance abuse, major relationship issues, etc), we are taught to encourage people to seek other forms of help r…
Thanks for the concern. In a way it helped a lot for therapy, we were stuck for some time on not-the-right-target and I was contemplating going it alone...
It set me on a path to unpack all these things. I can still remember the horrible state of mind I was in, unable to get back out a memory unlocking loop, no one to help me snap back to the moment, like a involuntary purge, trauma-vomiting. Tens of minutes. Ugh. Never felt that before and I didn't think that was possible. I even thought there was something very wrong with me.
But now I understand these were my first panic attacks ever and I'd never had them before because of very efficient systematic diversion, and an acquired ability to clench my jaws and put that 'energy' into work or studies or 'being a better X' (husband, friend, father, son, colleague, manager, ally, plumber, ...).
Therapy is hard.
Re: Meditation and the Unconscious
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
For some trauma-laden people, meditation can be quite a (bad) trip. I used to have horrible trauma flashbacks during meditation sessions. I would be getting into a calmer state, able to let go of anxiety, stress, daily minute thoughts, and after some quiet time, I'd be in a terrible state, with horrible memories surfacing. I definitely recommend not doing it alone if your childhood was painful. Same for yoga and long…
I'm not sure if you were doing guided meditation at the time, but that has really helped me. I do know what you mean about having trauma flashbacks, and you can get stuck in this loop. Meditation has thought me to not attach, recognize the thought, and start over. I use Waking Up with Sam Harris and I think that has really helped me from not attaching to the thoughts when they come up, and he will usually come back a…
I had problems with applying Jon Kabbat Zin, with guided meditation, and yoga (they call it 'yin' yoga here, where you stay for extended periods of time in poses, which is amazing for relaxation and stress-release and to get into a meditative state and that's where I went wrong :-)
I found I just need someone looking over every minute or so, whether I am in a bad way, and just talk to me, or just touch me (one teacher does a 'pose correction') to snap me back. It's even OK to have small trauma surfacing up, if it stops fast... It's hard to explain and it sure sounds sect-like but approaching that stuff in small doses is actually OK. Just not alone.
I talked about it to a friend long-time teacher in Qi-Cong (sorry for the bad spelling) that told me he always kept a look on his students for that kind of overwhelming reaction. So maybe it's not just me and meditation or yoga...
EDIT: thanks for the recommendation, will try.
Re: Meditation and the Unconscious
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
Minsky had many questionable opinions. Obviously somebody consumed by avarice would have an aversion to meditation.
Could you say more about "consumed by avarice"? I've not heard anyone say that before.
Sure. To be consumed by avarice is to be consumed by extreme greed for wealth or material gain.[^0]
[^0]: https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jef...
Re: Meditation and the Unconscious
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
Minsky had many questionable opinions. Obviously somebody consumed by avarice would have an aversion to meditation.
Why is that obvious?
Consider meditating. Greed clouds the mind. Compassion is key. Follow your own path and it will become apparent. Or you can refer to the above comment, if that helps.
Re: Meditation and the Unconscious
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hey, sounds like you're familiar with some of the teachings. But mindfulness is not associated with samatha but rather vipassana in the western world, even though the most accurate Pali word for mindful abiding is sati. Samatha is classically associated with one-pointedness that can be a helpful adjunct to a practice of insight as the revelations that accompany a sustained insight practice can often be disturbing. Me…
The terminology is messy. "Mindfulness of a thing" means samatha. "Just mindfulness" means vipassana. Sometimes they combine both and call the whole program "vipassana"... Messy and inconsistent. I like the terms "concentration" and "growing".
I think "concentration" is too strong a word, even, since samatha is really about letting go (of objects other than the object of meditation), rather than buckling down and trying to focus, which I think a lot of people associate "concentrating" with.
For me phrases like "gently staying with" or "quietly attending to" or even "remembering" (which is sort of what sati means anyway) work better than "concentration", but it seems like there isn't a perfect piece of terminology to describe the kind of effort/effortlessness balance that has to be achieved for samatha to work. But I feel that "letting go of distractions" is a better way around it than "concentrating one-pointedly" which tends to sound very effortful.
Mindfulness/vipassana/insight, I have no idea what a good phrase is. There are so many modifications of insight techniques that it's hard to find a common core sometimes.
That said, I believe the early Buddhist texts (i.e. the suttas) don't really make the samatha/vipassana distinction much if at all, this is a (relatively) recent development. And it seems like practicing one necessarily invokes some of the other (apart from during very refined states of samatha where there's no "bandwidth" for the kind of analysis and noting that happens in most insight techniques). I've often thought of vipassana practice as "applying the principles/mechanics of samatha to (xyz mental noting technique)", which might be why some traditions tend to have you do some form of samatha first before vipassana - because the mind needs a little training in being steady and dropping distractions before it can apply a vipassana technique in a (roughly) one-pointed way.
Re: Meditation and the Unconscious
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could you say more about "consumed by avarice"? I've not heard anyone say that before.
Sure. To be consumed by avarice is to be consumed by extreme greed for wealth or material gain.[^0] [^0]: https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jef...
It is my understanding that he refused the offer of sex. For instance, here is the WikiPedia (yes, I know WP can be an issue, but the link you provided is consistent with this quote): "[Ghislaine] Maxwell "directed" her to have sex with Minsky among others. There has been no allegation that sex between them took place nor a lawsuit against Minsky's estate."
Re: Meditation and the Unconscious
#118Makes me think of how Marvin Minsky thought Meditation was a bad thing.
I've always found it interesting that many meditation techniques involve "emptying the mind" or "clearing the mind" of thought. While practicing concentration on a single point of focus definitely seems useful for strengthening the mind, I'm not sure that practicing a state of being completely devoid of thought is necessarily healthy. I would rather meditate on being full of thought, and thinking of many things simul…
This is like saying sleeping is a "waste of time, how can I be more productive during my sleep?".
"clearing the mind", aka Shamatha without an object, has been compared to deep sleep but also a space where insights happen. You should give it a try, do it for 10 minutes a day for a month, just relax and don't hang onto anything (thought, feeling, noise, anything, just let them happen, relax some more).
Some of the theories are that it lets our right brain take over, others that only by stopping trying to be in control can old memories and repressed emotion come up, and some others are about deeper of sleep/reparation.
I'm as rational as the next guy, but this type of mediation has affected me more than other forms. Please check this video [2] of a brain researcher describing having a stroke in her left brain, and has a lot of parallel with some descriptions of deep meditative state.
[1]: https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Shamatha#Shamatha_...
Re: Meditation and the Unconscious
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure. To be consumed by avarice is to be consumed by extreme greed for wealth or material gain.[^0] [^0]: https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jef...
It is my understanding that he refused the offer of sex. For instance, here is the WikiPedia (yes, I know WP can be an issue, but the link you provided is consistent with this quote): "[Ghislaine] Maxwell "directed" her to have sex with Minsky among others. There has been no allegation that sex between them took place nor a lawsuit against Minsky's estate."
To be sure, but that's missing the point. Consider the situation from his perspective. Even if they weren't exactly simpatico, the residue of material greed lingers. Money makes us all liars. Meditate on that.
Re: Meditation and the Unconscious
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
The terminology is messy. "Mindfulness of a thing" means samatha. "Just mindfulness" means vipassana. Sometimes they combine both and call the whole program "vipassana"... Messy and inconsistent. I like the terms "concentration" and "growing".
I think "concentration" is too strong a word, even, since samatha is really about letting go (of objects other than the object of meditation), rather than buckling down and trying to focus, which I think a lot of people associate "concentrating" with. For me phrases like "gently staying with" or "quietly attending to" or even "remembering" (which is sort of what sati means anyway) work better than "concentration", bu…
When I do the first one, I hold my attention upon the thing as perfectly as I can for a length of time
When I do the second one, I watch sensations come and go while refraining from moving my awareness in reaction to what I observe.
Is that what you do?