Meditation and the Unconscious • Hacker News Board

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#101

Post by rendx » Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 11:43 AM UTC

touisteur wrote: post #98

dmje wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a common misunderstanding that meditation leads to tranquility, that you somehow become a calm person. In the moment it does, but the bigger picture is that it gives you tools to deal with life with more equanimity and balance. The offshoot might be a sense of calm but it's an effect rather than a cause. The "infinitely tranquil" thing needs some unpacking too, mainly because it's not exactly easy to define what…

For some trauma-laden people, meditation can be quite a (bad) trip. I used to have horrible trauma flashbacks during meditation sessions. I would be getting into a calmer state, able to let go of anxiety, stress, daily minute thoughts, and after some quiet time, I'd be in a terrible state, with horrible memories surfacing. I definitely recommend not doing it alone if your childhood was painful. Same for yoga and long…

Yes.

"Drawing on a decade of research and clinical experience, psychotherapist and educator David Treleaven shows that mindfulness meditation ― practiced without an awareness of trauma ― can exacerbate symptoms of traumatic stress. Instructed to pay close, sustained attention to their inner world, survivors can experience flashbacks, dissociation, and even retraumatization."

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#102

Post by lewispollard » Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 12:20 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #33

lewispollard wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mindfulness meditation is a term we use to describe the practices that certain famous/influential western meditation practitioners developed after coming back from the mostly theravada countries that they went to to learn meditation practices from the monks there in the 50-70s. Generally speaking, those practices were vipassana/insight practices, and so mindfulness practices are in essence, or at least are modified v…

> And yeah, the development of sati, along with other helpful factors, can help to gain insight, which is basically the way the mind looks at itself and conceptualises its own experience, in a kind of self-reflective way Actually the insight of vipassana is pretty consistent in being other -reflective and not "self"-reflective. It's concentrating on mental states as they happen, and realizing that a mental state can…

Right, by self reflective I wasn't talking about the self as identity - just as the mind and conscious experience noticing its own functioning.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#103

Post by swayvil » Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 12:20 PM UTC

bencollier49 wrote: post #96

bshepard wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naturalism is a metaphysical position; a second order claim about what kind of phenomena count as real. It is different than a methodological committment to only considering a certain set of causal relations -- this methodological committment makes research possible, not the metaphysical committment of naturalism, which is extremely untenable, as it can't account for the most basic aspects of our experience.

Absolutely. We are still suffering as a society from the baggage of the 20th century, when man rather foolishly imagined that science would explain everything. This was pretty much ruled out philosophically from the get-go, but we still have this naive scientism which crops up everywhere and claims to have explained the human condition and origin, when it has done nothing of the sort.

For most of us, mystery is intolerable. So we take the authoritative story on faith. And use it to create an airtight coccoon about ourselves. A bubble of dream where no phenomenon goes unexplained.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#104

Post by swayvil » Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 12:26 PM UTC

emptysongglass wrote: post #81

zozbot234 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vipassana is insight meditation, which is generally contrasted with mindfulness (known as 'samatha'). "Mindfulness" is generally thought of as a prerequisite to insight, though an especially committed vipassana practitioner might well develop both concurrently. (The aforementioned 'insight' is of course meant as insight into the three core features of phenomenology, viz. the impermanence of subjective states, the all…

Hey, sounds like you're familiar with some of the teachings. But mindfulness is not associated with samatha but rather vipassana in the western world, even though the most accurate Pali word for mindful abiding is sati. Samatha is classically associated with one-pointedness that can be a helpful adjunct to a practice of insight as the revelations that accompany a sustained insight practice can often be disturbing. Me…

The terminology is messy.

"Mindfulness of a thing" means samatha. "Just mindfulness" means vipassana. Sometimes they combine both and call the whole program "vipassana"...

Messy and inconsistent.

I like the terms "concentration" and "growing".

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#105

Post by touisteur » Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

rendx wrote: post #101

touisteur wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some trauma-laden people, meditation can be quite a (bad) trip. I used to have horrible trauma flashbacks during meditation sessions. I would be getting into a calmer state, able to let go of anxiety, stress, daily minute thoughts, and after some quiet time, I'd be in a terrible state, with horrible memories surfacing. I definitely recommend not doing it alone if your childhood was painful. Same for yoga and long…

Yes. See also https://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Sensitive-Mindfulness-Practice... "Drawing on a decade of research and clinical experience, psychotherapist and educator David Treleaven shows that mindfulness meditation ― practiced without an awareness of trauma ― can exacerbate symptoms of traumatic stress. Instructed to pay close, sustained attention to their inner world, survivors can experience flashbacks, dissociatio…

Thanks for this confirmation and reference.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#106

Post by andai » Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 3:37 PM UTC

dmje wrote: post #90

andai wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my understanding of "shadow work", which I believe was invented by Jung. Unpleasant thoughts and emotions are made conscious. In this way, the energy behind them is released and they no longer influence you subconsciously. This ties in nicely with the Buddhist Vipassana mindfulness meditation technique, although they are separate processes. In practical terms, I notice that something is bothering me, or that t…

Beautifully put. The meditation / Buddhist phrase often used is that of "two darts". The first dart is the "real" affliction. So an easy example is - you wake up with a migraine. The first dart is real. It's an actual thing. The second dart though is your response . So in the case of a migraine you might feel all sorts of things: anger that it's happening again, irritation that it's today when you've got so much to d…

I like how Ken Wilber puts it (the consequence of practicing awareness): "hurts more, bothers you less." As someone else here mentioned, the dentist is a great place to practice mindfulness and surrender to pain.

The key distinction seems to be between "pain" (the first dart) and suffering (the second, which is created by resisting the first). The Buddha defined enlightenment as "the end of suffering" (not the end of pain). The pain is still there, and you feel it more keenly than ever -- but it doesn't bother you.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#107

Post by jimkri » Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

touisteur wrote: post #98

dmje wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a common misunderstanding that meditation leads to tranquility, that you somehow become a calm person. In the moment it does, but the bigger picture is that it gives you tools to deal with life with more equanimity and balance. The offshoot might be a sense of calm but it's an effect rather than a cause. The "infinitely tranquil" thing needs some unpacking too, mainly because it's not exactly easy to define what…

For some trauma-laden people, meditation can be quite a (bad) trip. I used to have horrible trauma flashbacks during meditation sessions. I would be getting into a calmer state, able to let go of anxiety, stress, daily minute thoughts, and after some quiet time, I'd be in a terrible state, with horrible memories surfacing. I definitely recommend not doing it alone if your childhood was painful. Same for yoga and long…

I'm not sure if you were doing guided meditation at the time, but that has really helped me.

I do know what you mean about having trauma flashbacks, and you can get stuck in this loop. Meditation has thought me to not attach, recognize the thought, and start over. I use Waking Up with Sam Harris and I think that has really helped me from not attaching to the thoughts when they come up, and he will usually come back and refocus me.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#108

Post by monktastic1 » Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 4:29 PM UTC

kranner wrote: post #69

monktastic1 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting the practice just right seems to require personal connection with a master for whatever reason, but Sam Harris does a pretty good job of communicating the essence of it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSPWiEaOlfc . There are also lots of resources you can find online, though I can't say I recommend any one in particular. It is the kind of thing that requires a precise fit and the right conditions.

There seems to be an endless variety of Pointing Out / Rushen instructions in Dzogchen. Some work better than others for individual meditators. But personally I feel there's a strong placebo component to it as well. If you come in with a) good baseline concentration, b) an expectation of receiving real wisdom from a guru that you are in some awe of, you might be much more receptive than someone who stumbles into such…

Yes, Loch Kelly teaches Mahamudra.

While Dzogchen texts are certainly obscure, the proper realization of Dzogchen does entail a transformation of one's understanding of reality in a way that our culture would certainly find "woo woo." I would guess that Sam's aversion to such possibilities is what prevents his own practice and understanding from getting to that level, but this is just my own conjecture.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#109

Post by dmje » Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 4:41 PM UTC

andai wrote: post #106

dmje wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beautifully put. The meditation / Buddhist phrase often used is that of "two darts". The first dart is the "real" affliction. So an easy example is - you wake up with a migraine. The first dart is real. It's an actual thing. The second dart though is your response . So in the case of a migraine you might feel all sorts of things: anger that it's happening again, irritation that it's today when you've got so much to d…

I like how Ken Wilber puts it (the consequence of practicing awareness): "hurts more, bothers you less." As someone else here mentioned, the dentist is a great place to practice mindfulness and surrender to pain. The key distinction seems to be between "pain" (the first dart) and suffering (the second, which is created by resisting the first). The Buddha defined enlightenment as "the end of suffering" (not the end of…

Yes, I like that from Ken Wilbur, thanks!

Also, you put this much more succinctly than I did :-)

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#110

Post by dmje » Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 4:47 PM UTC

touisteur wrote: post #98

dmje wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a common misunderstanding that meditation leads to tranquility, that you somehow become a calm person. In the moment it does, but the bigger picture is that it gives you tools to deal with life with more equanimity and balance. The offshoot might be a sense of calm but it's an effect rather than a cause. The "infinitely tranquil" thing needs some unpacking too, mainly because it's not exactly easy to define what…

For some trauma-laden people, meditation can be quite a (bad) trip. I used to have horrible trauma flashbacks during meditation sessions. I would be getting into a calmer state, able to let go of anxiety, stress, daily minute thoughts, and after some quiet time, I'd be in a terrible state, with horrible memories surfacing. I definitely recommend not doing it alone if your childhood was painful. Same for yoga and long…

For sure. I'm training to be a MBSR (Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction) teacher and one of the things that is being stressed to us is the importance of providing loads of guidance / filtering when getting people to get involved - if there is significant trauma (and a whole bunch of other things including substance abuse, major relationship issues, etc), we are taught to encourage people to seek other forms of help rather than meditative approaches. Going deeper isn't always the right thing - people are very diverse in their needs, and teachers need to be really careful about being clear about this.

I think it's one of the things that is really off-putting to me about the current "trend" in mindfulness - the whole realm is completely un-mediated. Here in the UK literally anyone can set themselves up as a meditation teacher - there is only one body with anything approaching an "official" label and even that isn't required for anyone to practice. So there are always sadly gonna be people who are out there recommending and practicing really terrible stuff without being sensitive to individual needs.

Also: hope you are ok.