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Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

jasonstanford.substack.com

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Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#381

Post by ethbr0 »

dlp211 wrote: post #376
ethbr0 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This absolutely depends on local CPS, and they have wide authority within their lane. As they should, considering their mission and the interactions and choices they have to make in bad cases. But it does mean that a lot is subject to opinion. And once you're on the radar, how do you get off? How do you prove you're a good, safe, responsible parent when the judging worker believes otherwise and has some authority to…

By being a good, safe, responsible parent. You all are acting like CPS pulls kids away from stable homes on the daily. That isn't happening. This is a consequence of anecdote over data, where there is one or two widely bad outcomes and everyone reacts to them, when in reality, this almost never happens.

> on the daily

No, I am not arguing that. I am arguing that the system allows for it to happen a non-zero amount of the time.

And as a consequence of that possibility, the fear of it happened is a reasonably motivating factor in parent behavior.

Which isn't something we can (or should) probably fix. But is something that is.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#382

Post by mcv »

inetknght wrote: post #322
mcv wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tipping situation is absolutely stupid, but hardly the only problem. And shitty entitled customers contribute to both issues here: they treat employees poorly, and they tip poorly. Businesses should probably just kick those customers out. If you can't behave like a decent person, the business shouldn't have to accept you as a customer. Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself. If these service jobs a…

> Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself. We're at where we are because of market forces. I doubt the market will "correct itself" when the market doesn't see anything wrong.

What we are seeing is the market correcting itself: service jobs are unattractive, so people leave those jobs. If nobody is willing to pay more and offer better customer behaviour for those jobs, those services will simply disappear. That is how the market "corrects" itself.

I'm all for better wages and labour conditions, but as long as that doesn't, happen, these jobs and services will continue to disappear. I hope people are aware of the fact that they're currently effectively voting for no fast food, no restaurants, and no theatres, because that's what they're going to get if nothing changes.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#383

Post by oramit »

daveevad wrote: post #320
oramit wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed growing incivility as well and it's a slow moving culture change that I think we're all going to really regret. I don't think it's caused by just one thing and it has been brewing for a while but Covid just pushed it over the edge like so many other trends. Some ideas on the causes: - The fish rots from the head. Trump was elected in 2016 and he's an asshole. His whole schtick is to mock his opponents an…

> The fish rots from the head. Trump was elected in 2016 and he's an asshole. His whole schtick is to mock his opponents and never admit he was wrong. Obama roasting Trump at the White House Correspondents likely contributed to his decision to run for President. I agree your points by the way, I just think the fire started prior to 2016.

Another comment somewhere else in this thread mentioned 2008 and the bailouts for banks, bankruptcy for the public, as the place we should look at. With big society wide trends like this it's impossible to have a clear cause and effect. It's all a muddle which is why I've listed a few different ideas all of which contribute in their own way.

Covid is such a unique situation though and I think it will serve as a clear turning point where preexisting trends were shattered and others were turned up to 11.

But ultimately, we didn't start the fire, but we can try to fight it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#384

Post by bostik »

mcv wrote: post #264
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

The tipping situation is absolutely stupid, but hardly the only problem. And shitty entitled customers contribute to both issues here: they treat employees poorly, and they tip poorly. Businesses should probably just kick those customers out. If you can't behave like a decent person, the business shouldn't have to accept you as a customer. Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself. If these service jobs a…

> Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself.

Historically major corrections have been called something else, and the adjustments have been administered through blood and steel.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#385

Post by mcv »

Dracophoenix wrote: post #307
mcv wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, if you want the labour market to be a free market, universal basic income will help; then you've got a market where people can always say no to a deal they don't like. When the choice becomes: take the shitty deal or starve, it's not really a free market anymore.

What stops sellers from raising prices to the point that any meaningful gain in UBI is effectively zero?

To be truly effective, UBI needs to be directly linked to the basic costs of living, like food and rent. If those go up, so should UBI. Or as long as there is no UBI, minimum wage should follow those costs.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#386

Post by l8rpeace »

mcv wrote: post #348
l8rpeace wrote: post #100

Former politician who focused on labor joins the workforce and learns the real truth THEN chastises customers for not tipping in the conclusion of his article? Yes, he talks about the tough conditions of the job and customer behavior and other things, but nothing about how MAYBE legislation should change for wages (hourly service workers relying on tips in the US actually make well below the hourly minimum wage). Sor…

He addresses the low wages right at the start. He also addresses shitty customer behaviour and shitty employer demands. And yes, he also touches on tipping. I think the article is pretty well-rounded.

You are right and thank you for pointing that out. He hits these areas but, in my reading, fails to fully close the loop.

I feel that policy supported wage floors for tipping isn't addressed enough, if at all. Sure, they tried to get rid of tipping, but tipping here is only a problem when a former policy maker says, "tip because the policy supports it." I don't agree that policy should be reliant on goodwill but rather policy should support outcomes of goodwill.

That's the only part I find missing, especially considering the conclusion which doesn't strongly suggest policy around labor and wages as a cause (or even a solution).

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#387

Post by l8rpeace »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #321
l8rpeace wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! And how policy can have unintended consequence is HUGE. Why doesn't he really even mention that? It's upsetting that among the many observations that "people, tip more" ends up being the final thought and not "we created a system that affords all of this behavior, " not one that works with known conditions. Sure, I personally think people should be more generous, but they aren't obliged to be generous, I don't r…

> Sure, I personally think people should be more generous I think people shouldn't be expected to show generosity with an arbitrary subsidy.

Yes! There cannot be an expectation of goodwill, especially with policy. While I personally think people should be more generous, I can't believe that policy should depend on it. Thank you for pointing this out and I will work to be more clear.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#388

Post by laumars »

nbaugh1 wrote: post #72
post_break wrote: post #15

Welcome to the terrible world of tipping. Subsidize the wages so the employer doesn't have to. I got out of my way to avoid any type of business or service that has tipping. It's getting so bad out there I've seen people talk about getting asked for a tip in a drive thru. Do I tip when I eat out? Yes. But that's cut down to a minimum now. I think we're headed towards a breaking point. Profits and cost of living canno…

I wouldn't lay this all on the world of tipping. The author was working as a bartender in a movie theater making $10 plus split tips. People don't see movie theaters are a tipping environment, especially for the vast majority of the positions that aren't bartending. These are the epitome of minimum wage "low skill" jobs that we apparently demand exist, but don't want to pay the cost for.

I don’t think the issue is that people don’t want to pay I think the issue is that people are expected to pay meanwhile those running the companies earn a disproportionate wage.

Other counties manage to have services that don’t depend on tips to pay their staff’s wages. I don’t see why the US can’t as well.

The reason the situation sucks is entirely down to the greed of the companies.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#389

Post by peteradio »

bena wrote: post #127
peteradio wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Menu: $5 burger Customer 1 (richy rich): $5 + $2 tip Customer 2 (workin man): $5 + $1 tip Customer 3 (poor man): $5 no tip Total: $18 Menu: $6 burger Customer 1 (richy rich): $6 + $1 tip Total: $7 You've reduced your customer based on true affordability and perceived affordability. This doesn't consider the margin on selling a single burger but generally you need to push product rather than sell master pieces.

Your contrived hypothetical scenario is not proof of your conjecture. Because there are plenty of places that don't work with tips that do fine. Hell, some of our least expensive options operate in a tip-free environment. And no restaurant where tipping is expected is selling for the same price as fast food places in the first place. So it's not the scenario where you're looking at two options that seem equally price…

If you look into the financializations of any Restaurant you won't necessarily be able to generalize to all Restaurants. McDonald's empire is built on real estate not burgers anymore for instance.

Anyway I was speaking specifically on my own regions circumstances, we don't have fastfood within a 1hr round-trip. That 1hr adds up to a few bucks gas and time I don't have. There is no 2 options.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#390

Post by mindslight »

rnk wrote: post #367
mindslight wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Access to banking is indeed a problem, but pragmatically there is always cash or a non-fraudulent [0] check drawn on a local bank. And for tips specifically, they can just be bundled with the rest of the pay rather than creating a second problem. [0] for example checks drawn on Bank of America accounts are generally fraudulent, as BoA refuses to pay the specified amount when presented for payment at a branch. They're…

Can you explain. You left off your reference, but are you saying boa refuses to pay legit checks or what exactly?

It was a reference to clarification, which was the following paragraph.

https://www.valuepenguin.com/banking/where-to-cash-check-wit...

Apparently it's not just BoA, but also Chase, Suntrust, TD, and Wells Fargo now want to demand a nonsensical "check cashing fee" to cash a check drawn on one of their accounts. But the entire purpose of a check is that it is an order to your bank to pay someone an exact amount of money, and thus subtracting such a fee is impermissable. The proper way to assess such a fee would be to the account holder as an additional amount out of their account.

If you're a customer of one of these banks and write someone a check for "$100.00", they are seemingly unable to present it to your bank and receive $100 as you had promised. As such, you have written a bad check and stand to be prosecuted for check fraud.

Of course only the powerless will get tripped up by this corner case, as it's much easier for anyone with a bank account to present the check to their own bank who will turn around and present it via ACH. But I'd love to see someone in just the right position record their interaction with the dishonoring bank, return the dishonored check to the payer, and demand a proper payment plus a $35 rejected check fee.

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