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Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

jasonstanford.substack.com

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Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#191

Post by vorpalhex »

acdha wrote: post #32
mschuster91 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the usual "high school jobs" are not a problem when done by actual high schoolers as side gig to fund phone, beer, weed and gas. They don't need to pay rent, food or health insurance so what would be a non-living wage for an adult is luxury money for high schoolers. The problem is when actual adults who have to take care of adult things (rent, food, health insurance, car payments, ...) have to re…

I knew multiple classmates who were working substantial hours because their families needed the extra income, and that was when wages were better than they are now. Anything close to real work should pay real wages because otherwise you’re screwing the most desperate at the expense of the more affluent kids who can afford to walk away.

> Anything close to real work should pay real wages because otherwise you’re screwing the most desperate at the expense of the more affluent kids who can afford to walk away.

That isn't how wages work. If someone can do the same job for less, they will and you will not get paid.

You can raise the minimum but then you make everything more expensive (the people who build the tractors get more, the guy driving the tractor gets more, the person picking the lettuce gets paid more, the lady trimming and repackaging the lettuce gets more, the truck driver delivering the lettuce gets more, the high schooler throwing the lettuce on your burger gets more...)

That "make everything more expensive" is inflation. Inflation hurts the poor the most. The lady making $400k/year doesn't care if ground beef is 10% more expensive.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#192

Post by ashtonkem »

mwhitfield wrote: post #34
sokoloff wrote: post #18

Am I reading the author right that he’s expecting people to tip on the movie ticket portion of their check? If so, I’m not at all surprised to he ended up disappointed when people didn’t do that. It would never occur to me to do that, before or after reading the article.

I don't think that was the expectation, not sure where you read that into it. The two examples he gave were for the bar in the lobby and a total bill that would be mainly food. This is presumably a Drafthouse or one of the similar places that have full waiter service at your seat.

Part of the issue with tipping culture is that there's a grey area between the "obviously tipped" and "obviously not tipped" roles. This grey area creates space for companies to pay tipped wages, but customers to also not tip because they didn't think about it.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#193

Post by chiefalchemist »

nepeckman wrote: post #87

It's a shame that the comments here are laser focused on the tipping parts of the article, and not the bigger picture items. The author outlines the struggles of getting service jobs filled in high CoL areas, the vicious cycle of turnover in these jobs, and all the commenters here want to discuss is the 2 paragraphs on tipping.

Welcome to HN. An early comment goes off target and too many others follow. But we're all intelligence free-thinkers, yes?

But then make an unpopular observation on the aryicle / topic and you get down-voted.

Humans are "complicated", to put it kindly.

p.s. Yes, I senses the irony.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#194

Post by dollarsuck »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122
nepeckman wrote: post #87

It's a shame that the comments here are laser focused on the tipping parts of the article, and not the bigger picture items. The author outlines the struggles of getting service jobs filled in high CoL areas, the vicious cycle of turnover in these jobs, and all the commenters here want to discuss is the 2 paragraphs on tipping.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

An outcome of little to no consequences for actions.

Come visit my local grocery store. Few replace carts at the store or in the stalls, there will be 2-6 vehicle using the clearly-marked "Fire Lane - No Parking" lane as their personal parking spots plainly blocking the doors of the foyer (and this is not drop-off, not pick-up, not having their spouse load up in a rain storm). Have "About 12 Items or Fewer" - well have fun, there's two carts loaded for bear ready to use the checkout lane.

The manager will watch it all and dare not life a finger nor raise a voice.

The restaurant at which my S/O works, it's in the nice part of town. The nicest part of town you could possibly not afford. For the lunch crowd, there will be a dozen or so regular folks filtering in with absurd, demanding, bespoke requests (I want the meat of sandwich A, the bread off sandwich B, the condiments from an item on the Sunday Brunch menu). The owner will not let them refuse a request. Ever. Regardless of the problems it will cause for everyone around. Regardless of how long it will waste table space. That $18 lunch order must be fulfilled.

The local pizza joint, my go-to spot for two NY slices and a PBR for a cool $7 - they're not allowed to refuse service to rude patrons regardless of how awful. I once had the barkeep slip me a note asking that I (a large, eternally angry looking man) please wait at the bar for another patron to leave and that my drinks would be comped. Why? The belligerent customer refusing to leave, who entered the facility screaming at (we assume) "incompetent cunt" of a secretary.

It's a bit fascinating and frustrating. One makes an off-color joke on Twitter[0], or an elected official makes a frustrated comment about double-standards[1] and a lynch mob forms to harangue a corporation into punishing the textual predator. Some of those same companies (See: [1]) will not oust a belligerent man attempting to start a fight in the produce section over a road rage incident.

It's all appearance over substance.

[0] - https://www.marketwatch.com/story/anheuser-busch-cuts-ties-w...

[1] - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/costco-pulls-palmetto-cheese-fo...

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#195

Post by smarx007 »

I see that many are fixed on tips, but I found it quite shocking to read about long queues of people on the Christmas day and people quitting on the Christmas Eve. In many European cities, the streets are completely empty and almost all shops (maybe a local supermarket would open from 10:00 till 14:00 on a Christmas day after being closed for the Eve) are closed both on the Christmas Eve and the Christmas day.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#196

Post by eminence32 »

l8rpeace wrote: post #100

Former politician who focused on labor joins the workforce and learns the real truth THEN chastises customers for not tipping in the conclusion of his article? Yes, he talks about the tough conditions of the job and customer behavior and other things, but nothing about how MAYBE legislation should change for wages (hourly service workers relying on tips in the US actually make well below the hourly minimum wage). Sor…

The title of the article ("He thought tending bar sounded like fun. Then the entire kitchen staff quit on Christmas Eve"), the NH submission title ("Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now") and your comment ("...joins the workforce and learns the real truth") make it sounds like the author experienced some deep revelation about the state of this kind of work.

I think the titles are a bit hyperbolic (to bait clicks, perhaps), as my reading of the article is different: I think the things described in this article are not surprising to the author and not supposed to be that surprising to the audience. I read the article a much more straightforward comment by the author to say "this is my experiences and I don't think they're unique".

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#197

Post by davemp »

bluGill wrote: post #168
davemp wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thinking was that it created too much of a relationship of subservience rather than equals participating in commerce, to be compatible with American ideals of freedom. That's my feelings about tipping. The custom feels very classist. Depending on tips creates a social divide between service industries and their customers. I used to work for tips when I was growing up (~2010). My rate was about $15-20/hr which y…

You have just talked me into tips. I want a server who will entertain me while I'm waiting. There is a line of course, don't do too much, but a bit of make me feel better about it is worth paying extra for. Service with a good bubbly personality is well worth the extra cost in my opinion.

This shows a disturbing lack of empathy.

> I want a server who will entertain me while I'm waiting.

Not everyone does--people are fickle. There's also a reason theaters don't use a pay-what-you-want model. Having your lively hood to depend on the whims of strangers is no way to operate.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#198

Post by mindslight »

mynameishere wrote: post #134
CPLX wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. The part about getting your income on an ATM card with mandatory fees no matter what you do seems like the best anecdotal example of how fucked things are for the little guy these days.

For many low-wage employees the alternative to this is check cashing fees which is even worse. The issue of why so many people are unbanked is a separate discussion.

Access to banking is indeed a problem, but pragmatically there is always cash or a non-fraudulent [0] check drawn on a local bank. And for tips specifically, they can just be bundled with the rest of the pay rather than creating a second problem.

[0] for example checks drawn on Bank of America accounts are generally fraudulent, as BoA refuses to pay the specified amount when presented for payment at a branch. They're trying to run a similar scam to the ATM card fee described in the article, but they're doing it with the much older technology of checks and thereby inducing their customers to commit check fraud.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#199

Post by nradov »

wayoutthere wrote: post #77
seneca wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the point is that these jobs don't create that much value. They're only worth so much, and the only skill required to do them is to put up with the misery. If you argue that all jobs must pay a "living wage", then jobs like this will just cease to exist and high-school kids won't be employable.

Good! High school kids shouldn’t need jobs. Encouraging that just ensures we have a child labor workforce that we can underpay, driving down wages for adults who need that money to survive. Child labor laws are a thing for a reason. If there’s not a lot of value in a job, it shouldn’t be a job. Yes, this will mean a degradation in service level across service jobs. Yes, that’s okay. Customers need to adapt to a world…

High school kids shouldn't need jobs, but they can all benefit from working part time jobs. Having a job teaches them how the real world operates and exposes them to diverse people outside their social bubble. In retrospect the jobs I had as a high school kid were tremendously valuable in ways that went beyond the tiny wages that I earned.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#200

Post by kasey_junk »

jklinger410 wrote: post #190
bradleyjg wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restaurant owners do not like it. For them it means a fixed percentage of revenue has to go to the front of house. Also, it means that waitstaff will side with the customer’s interests over the restaurant’s. Consider for example a round of free drinks at a bar—increases the tip but costs the bar. Restaurant owners that have tried to eliminate tipping find a) customers are uncomfortable and sometimes try to tip anyway…

> For them it means a fixed percentage of revenue has to go to the front of house. ??? Tipping is not a "fixed percentage." You may have a few edge cases here, but I have to push back on the idea that business owners don't like it. They get to pay their front house staff next to nothing, this money consistently goes untaxed, and it gives their employees incentive to work hard. It also gives their front house the capa…

It’s not a fixed percentage but it’s close enough to think of it that way.

The real problem is that they are legally prohibited from using tip share to pay their back of house more.

This puts them in a situation where if they want to raise kitchen staff wages they have to raise prices and restaurant customers are extremely price sensitive.

Several high end restaurants (were presumably there would be less price sensitivity) have tried doing away with tips and raising their prices to pay all staff a more uniform wage. It’s largely failed. Customers don’t like higher prices and front if house staff largely prefer tips as they make more (at the cost of lower pay for their kitchen colleagues).

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