Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

jasonstanford.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 456 posts

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#61

Post by EvRev »

peteradio wrote: post #27
gbrindisi wrote: post #8

I am always baffled when I read about the tip culture in the states. I find it so belittling for workers. It seems to incentivize a mentality of "the customer is always right", with workers putting an extra effort to always smile and be nice in the hope for a fair tip.

Restaurants can really barely afford to stay open in my (small) region, frankly they are seen as a service to a town not a net extractor. I know the finances behind my locals and can tell you they would not be able to stay open if workers were not also compensated via tips, and workers would not be there without the requisite pay. Tips end up being the difference between having a restaurant or not.

When we look at the issues that are behind the thin margins that restaurants operate on, i.e. rent and cost of goods, then it seems that the labor is the only variable that is under the operators control. So instead of framing the argument of whether we should have to directly pay those wages/tips the discussion needs to shift.

Why are commercial rents so high? Because vacancies are preferred over "market rate" rents. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27939860

Not saying this is the case, but when a business shuts down the property it operated in stays in place. The rent will continue to rise to meet the financial demands of the property owner. So the next fool comes in and tries to run a business that is doomed. The young workers rents are subsidized by parents. Unless a restaurant owner is working in the trenches then they will NEVER be able to run the business effectively.

The banks get richer either way, but at a certain point there will not be any restaurants left as the societal contracts erode.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#62

Post by mhb »

There's a line out the door and workers are quitting because of low pay and bad working conditions? It seems like a former labor secretary would, instead of blogging about a static situation, understand that this is a self-correcting problem. If you have demand that you can't satisfy, you raise your price.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#64

Post by gexla »

gbrindisi wrote: post #8

I am always baffled when I read about the tip culture in the states. I find it so belittling for workers. It seems to incentivize a mentality of "the customer is always right", with workers putting an extra effort to always smile and be nice in the hope for a fair tip.

It's like a hack for the owner to show prices at a discount to the meal. If everyone has a shared expectation that the tip is a certain rate, then that's the pay. Why not remove tipping and add that cost to the menu? But then maybe you wouldn't be as competitive?

I'm sure there are people who can make good money on tips. That's more like a commission on sales. In that sense, you're taking the risk of a higher upside by working in this industry. But the way it actually works, is that most will pay the expected tip. some won't pay any tip at all, some will give a bigger tip, and the worker is left to absorb the variance on a low pay gig.

The industry should remove the downside and allow the upside. You get paid X. There is no tipping system. But the customer can still tip if they like.

I don't work in the industry. Maybe I'm way off. I hope the employment picture changes in the future so that people will appreciate face to face service. I can't reach Facebook or Google for support and I'll cry about my loss, but I'll feel entitled to rage on my server for my $10 meal? Doesn't seem sustainable.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#65

Post by alistairSH »

mwhitfield wrote: post #34
sokoloff wrote: post #18

Am I reading the author right that he’s expecting people to tip on the movie ticket portion of their check? If so, I’m not at all surprised to he ended up disappointed when people didn’t do that. It would never occur to me to do that, before or after reading the article.

I don't think that was the expectation, not sure where you read that into it. The two examples he gave were for the bar in the lobby and a total bill that would be mainly food. This is presumably a Drafthouse or one of the similar places that have full waiter service at your seat.

...a family bought over $100 worth of tickets and food...

I'm not sure how this theater is arranged. My local theater serves beer/wine and some heavy snacks. But, it doesn't have table service. Just the typical counter service. I've never tipped and always assumed the counter staff is earning at least minimum wage (no different than buying a latte at Starbucks).

The few times I've gone to a movie theater with table service, the tickets and food/drink were separate bills - tickets purchased in advance of the showing and food/drink ordered during previews/ads. The food bill would be tipped like any other restaurant with table service.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#66

Post by soco »

mschuster91 wrote: post #10
lotsofpulp wrote: post #5

> Places like this rely on high school students for jobs like working the counter and delivering food. This sentence should be amended to “Places like this rely on people to accept low wages and low quality of life at work”. The whole article can basically be cut down to that sentence.

For what it's worth, the usual "high school jobs" are not a problem when done by actual high schoolers as side gig to fund phone, beer, weed and gas. They don't need to pay rent, food or health insurance so what would be a non-living wage for an adult is luxury money for high schoolers. The problem is when actual adults who have to take care of adult things (rent, food, health insurance, car payments, ...) have to re…

I'm not sure how being served in a restaurant (restaurant, not fast food joint) by a high schooler can make an experience I'd wish to repeat. Or having my chateaubriand cooked by one.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#67

Post by lotsofpulp »

bsenftner wrote: post #31
phlipski wrote: post #2

Excellent article. Shame so many wealthy people are cheap on tips. Always round up on the tip - the people relying on them need that extra $1-5 dollars more than you do. And if you can't afford those extra few dollars than what are you doing going out in the first place?

It dismays me how many wealthy people I know that flat our refuse to tip. I end such friendships, as those people are monsters, waiting for an excuse to toss others away.

If dismays me how many people make negative judgements about a person based on them fulfilling the stated terms of a transaction.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#68

Post by voltagedivider »

bsenftner wrote: post #31
phlipski wrote: post #2

Excellent article. Shame so many wealthy people are cheap on tips. Always round up on the tip - the people relying on them need that extra $1-5 dollars more than you do. And if you can't afford those extra few dollars than what are you doing going out in the first place?

It dismays me how many wealthy people I know that flat our refuse to tip. I end such friendships, as those people are monsters, waiting for an excuse to toss others away.

Any chance they're trying to end the practice of tipping for the betterment of workers in the long run?

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#69

Post by NikolaeVarius »

seneca wrote: post #36
lotsofpulp wrote: post #5

> Places like this rely on high school students for jobs like working the counter and delivering food. This sentence should be amended to “Places like this rely on people to accept low wages and low quality of life at work”. The whole article can basically be cut down to that sentence.

Well, the point is that these jobs don't create that much value. They're only worth so much, and the only skill required to do them is to put up with the misery. If you argue that all jobs must pay a "living wage", then jobs like this will just cease to exist and high-school kids won't be employable.

> these jobs don't create that much value

According to what I read online, apparently eating out is something that is necessary for mental health and the pandemic causing issues with eating out is actually causing issues for people for some godforsaken reason.

So probably not as valueless as you might think

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#70

Post by burkaman »

pitaj wrote: post #46
burkaman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is belittling, and almost nobody except restaurant owners likes it. It's sort of a game theory problem - if we could coordinate everyone to stop tipping, then restaurants would be forced to pay their workers normal wages, and almost everyone would be better off. But if I stop tipping, I'm just an asshole making no impact on society. I guess the only practical approach is to simultaneously keep tipping and push for…

I think you'll find that servers and bartenders are the most adimant supporters of tipping. They make a killing.

I know there are some lucky bartenders that make a ton, but in my personal experience the people I know who have worked as servers and bartenders are not supporters. I'm actually finding it very difficult to find any surveys or research on this. I found one poll that shows tipped workers are in favor of a $15 minimum wage in addition to tips (obviously), but I can't find anything asking about a higher minimum wage without tips.
Post reply on HN