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Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

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Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#191

Post by ajsnigrutin »

tigershark wrote: post #175
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, which country data do you want to use? Usa, 480k smoking deaths yearly - https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast... , still more than covid deaths there. And not to mention counting the iffy counting of covid deaths (any death, even suicide within 28 days is a covid death) and covid hospitalizations ( https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/26/exclusive-half-c... ). Let's be honest here... c…

USA excess deaths are over 1M so it’s still greater than smoke deaths. 646k is for the first year: https://www.nber.org/papers/w29503 646k > 480k if I’m not mistaken.

So, every excess deaths is a covid death now?

20k of those, are just extra overdoses (100k total). - https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/...

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#192

Post by scarab92 »

wombatmobile wrote: post #5

David Crowe writes in The Age https://archive.ph/Ohx6d The political cost of letting Djokovic stay was too high for Morrison Australians have been barred from visiting a dying parent in hospital, blocked from seeing a new grandchild and forbidden from having a wedding. Should they accept that a tennis star gets the leeway they were denied? Angering those Australians would have been a huge danger for Morrison when he…

Politics aside, the entry requirements for Australia explicitly require full vaccination with a WHO approved vaccine or a valid medical exemption. Prior infection is explicitly not sufficient for an exemption.

Djokovic did not meet the entry requirements, he knew he did not meet the entry rquirents, but he boarded the plane anyway.

The earlier visa cancellation was overturned on procedural grounds only. This ministerial intervention is a bit heavy handed, but only produces the same outcome that would normally apply to anyone in Djokovic's situation.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#193

Post by Someone »

_ph_ wrote: post #107
mostertoaster wrote: post #58

Is omnicron worse than a common cold? Maybe the colloquial you always get a new virus with every common cold is also true of covid. If vaccinated people are spreading covid (and maybe more so since their symptoms are probably so minor), what good does banning an athlete in great health do? All it proves is this is about politics and power, not health. At this point all those who go along with this charade, insisting…

Yes, omicron is much worse than a common cold or the flu. Completely unvaccinated persons are still in quite a danger for life through it. The virus is known not only to cause death, but to cause organ damages even with lighter case and having likely long term effects. The whole affair isn't because he is likely a major risk to the population of Australia - that can be easily ruled out by a test, but about failing to…

The flu also kills thousands every year.

The jury is still out there, but it is possible that omicron turns out to be in about the same league as some of the more dangerous flu strains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_pandemic says the Asian flu and the Hong Kong flu epidemics killed 100,000 in the USA, at times where the population of the USA was below 200 million)

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#194

Post by mickotron »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #41

Djokovic was never eligible to enter Australia. He lied about having a medical excuse to not be vaccinated. He used 'exemptions' from organisations other than the immigration authorities to muddy the waters. He was trying to blag it all along and got caught. He got lucky with a border guard making a mistake which ultimately allowed him entry, but doing anything but cancelling his visa would have been contrary to norm…

Victorian Government gave him exemption. And prior to Novak arriving, the PM said it was "up to the states". Then he changed his mind within 24hrs.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#195

Post by alkonaut »

ls15 wrote: post #189
alkonaut wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So he took the risk of myocarditis from Covid-19, over the risk of myocarditis from vaccine once already. That was a poor choice. He still faces the same risk in the future. He still has the same choice. It doesn't change because you are a healthy young person. The risk of this complication is higher from the disease than the vaccine in every group , (the male under 40 doesn't really make a big difference - there you…

> He still faces the same risk in the future. He surely has some immunity now, no?

Yes but that immunity wanes regardless of whether it's natural or from vaccine.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#196

Post by native_samples »

kleiba wrote: post #169
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/tobacco > Tobacco kills more than 8 million people each year. More than 7 million of those deaths are the result of direct tobacco use while around 1.2 million are the result of non-smokers being exposed to second-hand smoke. Two years, 16+mio deaths. Total covid deaths, a bit over 5 mio. edit: even obesity, 2.8mio per year, 5.6mio in two years - htt…

Two years, 16+mio deaths. Total covid deaths, a bit over 5 mio. I don't get it. You're arguing against government interventions because of relatively low fatality numbers. Yet, the fact that these numbers are not higher is a direct outcome of the world-wide vaccination campaigns. Don't you think you got it backwards?

Well we'd all like to think that but if you plot cumulative world deaths on a graph there's no inflection point in 2021. The graph just keeps going up and to the right at exactly the same speed as it always did:

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

It's really hard to explain this. I admit to being baffled. If vaccines are saving lives then there should have been a clear bend downwards in the trend line of the graph but if any such bend exists at all you have to squint to see it. If anything there looks like a slight acceleration in the first months of 2021 (but it's small enough I can't say for sure by eyeballing it).

Lots of people don't understand the numbers around total COVID deaths, by the way. In the past week alone I've seen internet comments saying that over 20 million have died of COVID, that vaccines have saved "millions of lives" when COVID overall since the start has only claimed (or rather, been temporally associated with) millions of lives, and VE lasted only months due to Omicron and when it rolled out. So it's impossible for vaccines to have saved millions of lives.

But this is understandable when you consider what people tell opinion polls. Lots of people, including people who think of themselves as well informed and educated, mis-estimate the dangers of COVID by orders of magnitude :(

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/354938/adults-estimat...

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#197

Post by stef25 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #150
stef25 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we should only pay attention to whatever illness causes the most deaths and ignore the rest? You're free to get ill if you choose (from smoking, covid, whatever) but it's really hard to believe people don't understand you don't have the right to endanger others, be it with tobacco smoke or covid. That's also why we have speed limits. If you want to endanger yourself driving 250Km/h that's fine. But you can't, beca…

I mean... you probably shouldn't ignore the thing that kills the most people, to deal with something that kills less people than that. And yes, we basically do the calculation (deaths vs convenience) all the time.. look at speed limits for cars, they're just a calculation of traffic deaths per year vs time losses due to lower speed limits.. a few deaths is ok, because everyone can get to work faster, but a lot of dea…

> I mean... you probably shouldn't ignore the thing that kills the most people, to deal with something that kills less people than that

Smoking isn't ignored ... I don't think any illness is ignored in favor of any others. Doctors have been insisting people do not postpone medical procedures and checkups because they're worried about covid in hospitals (which has been happening, and causing more deaths).

One of the main reasons to get vaccinated against covid is specifically so hospitals don't get overwhelmed to the point where patients have to turned away, regardless of what they're suffering from.

> look at speed limits for cars, they're just a calculation of traffic deaths per year vs time losses due to lower speed limits

I doubt that speed limits have anything to do with "time lost". The difference in covering 30Km at 150Km/h vs 120Km/h is 3 min, negligible. Wake up earlier :)

Faster driving doesn't cause more accidents, but it does cause greater injury (complicated subject with lots of research, no time to dig all this up).

> with vaccines... if someone doesn't want to vaccinate, who exactly are they endangering

You're also endangering vaccinated people. The risk of serious illness is greatly reduced but you're not guaranteed not to die. A vaccine is like a seat belt (works super well but doesn't make you invincible).

And it's not just 1 or 0. People die from covid and survivors can have long lasting afflictions from it. I think the statistic is for every person that dies, there's 5 that will be "marked" for life by covid. Not "long covid" or whatever, but life long problems with reduced lung capacity, problems with kidneys, heart etc - things they will suffer from in varying degrees for years to come, burdening the healthcare and social welfare system and the economy in general (global cost is already in the trillions of dollars).

And it's still not ok to endanger those who aren't vaccinated because they can still end up in hospital, using up valuable resources. So if you want to have your covid parties that's fine if you sign a contract saying you'll receive no medical help whatsoever should you get infected. Anything else is morally wrong.

It's extremely tiring having to explain all this basic, obvious stuff to people. I'm sure if you thought it through you could figure it out for yourself.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#198

Post by network2592 »

gattilorenz wrote: post #132
adamnemecek wrote: post #17

Novak? More like No-vac-cine.

These days a popular nickname for him in Italy is indeed Novax (the term we use for antivaxxers)

It would be interesting to see if he ultimately accepts 'Novax' Djokovic as a rigidly defined part of his identity. The more this drags on publicly, the less face-saving opportunities for him to accept vaccination.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#199

Post by ls15 »

alkonaut wrote: post #182
ls15 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he has some cardiac problem but who knows He doesn't. He want's to avoid them. For males under 40 the risk for getting myocarditis is higher than for getting it from covid. That has been discussed on HN.

In the past when your risk of getting the disease was perhaps smaller maybe you could start doing this math. Now that it's clear that everyone will get the disease (multiple times) it's not so easy. Not least because even if you are a "make under 40", you eventually won't be. Besides there are numerous other side effects from the virus than myocarditis. Focusinig on this particular one and ignoring all the others is…

> the disk is first of all extremely low in all groups

Not by official WHO definitions.

101 in a million is equivalent to 1.01/10,000. With 1/10,000 it falls into the bracket for the definition of "rare", not "very rare" or "extremely rare". I wish the media would use these official definitions.

https://www.who.int/medicines/areas/quality_safety/safety_ef...

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#200

Post by grujicd »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #147
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #28

One the one hand: Australia is the wrong country entirely to try this shtick on. The "fair play" ethos is strong, the "tall poppy syndrome" (1) is evidence of Australian reflexively reacting angrily to the "don't you know who I am?" routine, to someone asking for the rules for normal people to be set aside for the rich and famous. He might have gotten away with it, but once it was in the papers and the public eye was…

> it would be trivial for him to actually just get vaccinated That's not even required. He could have quarantine for 14 days too, but I imagine that would have been way too inconvenient for him. There didn't seem to be any reason why he couldn't of come earlier.

Quarantine was the option last year, I don’t think it was avaialable for this Australian Open.
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