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Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

reuters.com

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Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#111

Post by remarkEon »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #73
loourr wrote: post #67

I feel that these articles rarely give any perspective on Russia's issue which is that Ukraine joining NATO would be a violation of prior agreements and would result in armaments being placed at their boarder which they view as a risk and security breach. The US is basically saying we don't care and we are going to do it despite your objections and then pretending Russia threatening military action is unilateral host…

> Ukraine joining NATO would be a violation of prior agreements This purported promise is a myth, see my comments here [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29924836

Calling it a "myth" misses the forest for the trees.

What possible benefit to existing NATO members does Ukraine joining serve? I can't think of any, unless you define "benefit" as "intentionally antagonizing the former Cold War adversary".

From the former Ambassador to Soviet Union[1]:

>When the Budapest memorandum was signed in 1994 there was no plan to expand NATO to the east and Gorbachev had been assured in 1990 that the alliance would not expand. When in fact it did expand right up to Russia’s borders, Russia was confronted with a radically different strategic situation than existed when the Budapest agreement was signed.

Now, while it's true that there wasn't a treaty or a document that said "Ukraine will never join NATO", there was a good-faith understanding that NATO would not expand like it has. Gentlemen can disagree that this was or was not a realistic understanding of the security and geopolitical situation at that time, but it's genuinely odd that everyone acts like Russia is the sole aggressor in this.

[1] https://www.krasnoevents.com/uploads/1/1/6/6/116679777/krasn...

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#112

Post by bumby »

yongjik wrote: post #72
kaczordon wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why’re your bringing the U.S. into this right now to bash it. If anything increased U.S. military presence in Poland is sorely needed.

I don't think GP is trying to bash the US: they're just pointing out it's "the oldest trick in the book." Obviously that doesn't mean it's OK that Russia is doing it.

Correct, I was merely underscoring the historic use of the tactic and not "bashing" any country

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#113

Post by nickpp »

arminiusreturns wrote: post #64
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from the Russian point of view, offering NATO membership to Ukraine is an act of agression and they've been wrecking Ukraine for this ever since One, Ukraine hasn't been invited to join NATO. Two, even if NATO had never entertained the idea, I'm sure Putin would pitch the existence of hats and teacups as clear evidence of Western aggression against Russia.

See I listen to people who know what they are talking about on this topic, people like Ray McGovern the former head of the soviet desk for the CIA, and I find their comments refreshingly nuanced, explaining things like how we promised Russia we wouldnt do an eastward expansion of nato, etc. ...and then I see comments like yours that just seem to want to make Russia into this mustache twirling always evil villian and…

Yeah maybe you should try listen to the people who lived in the countries under Russian influence and you'll find thing are a lot less nuanced here. We know exactly who the real villains were since we had friends and relatives who died at their hands. The scars are still here, the memories still alive, the monstrosity still visits us in our nightmares. We would do anything to prevent that from happening to us again.

Sorry if I am destroying your good, nuanced conversation.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#114

Post by shashurup »

nullifidian wrote: post #96
esarbe wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any reliable (international) source for Russian internal affairs that is not tainted by state propaganda? Can you give a recommendation?

Understanding a country without knowing the language/culture is an endeavor fraught with failure in my opinion. The only way is to learn the language, learn the cultural differences(preferably at least partially from "field experience", not that it's advisable as of late), and read the same things a curious Russian would.

Or you may someone who live in Russia :)

I can share a worldview many Russians hold. Of course I'm influenced by a state propaganda to some extent, but at least I read both, Russian and Western media.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#116

Post by JumpCrisscross »

VictorPath wrote: post #95
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it was the United States that broke the promise to not expand NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union This promise is a myth [1]. At best, it was an informal statement by some guy in the U.S. government [2]. This has been blown out of proportion beyond any semblance to reality by Putin's propaganda. And if it had happened, it would have been an agreement with the Soviet Union. Which does not exist. Russia, in 1994,…

> some guy in the U.S. government With "some guy in the government" being the US secretary of state.

> With "some guy in the government" being the US secretary of state

Maybe. The person to whom Baker supposedly made these comments doesn't remember them. The treaty regarding the reunification of Germany, in the context of which these statements were supposedly made, is devoid of any reference to them, as is any other official or public record.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#117

Post by pc86 »

mrguyorama wrote: post #110
pc86 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can move to Russia. They have as much right to move Crimea to Russia as citizens of Maine do to leave the US and join Canada - e.g. not much. This is all hypothetical though. What happened in reality is that Russia rolled tanks into a neighboring sovereign country, invading it, and stole a part of it. It's a blatant and egregious act of war.

I was just about to say: The vast majority of northern maine, including most of my family, is "French Canadian", some of them even having French as a first language. Go ahead and try telling them they should belong to Canada and it wouldn't be a big deal if Canada invaded and annexed them. You won't have many friends

I'm not sure how you can get that sentiment from my comment.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#118

Post by uejfiweun »

Posted elsewhere, but there seems to be good discussion going on here:

I hate to say it, but the US is clearly the provocateur here. There is no real reason that the US needs Ukraine, a state that has historically been part of Russia, in NATO. Having Ukraine in NATO does approximately jack shit to benefit a person like me, a regular peasant in the US. Imagine if the US lost the cold war and the USSR decided to invite Canada and Mexico into the Warsaw Pact - that's pretty much what is going on here.

The propaganda machine is in full swing at this point, I think the rulers of the US are actively hoping for war. Why else would they be so provocative? If someone has an answer to this I'd love to hear it, but it really seems to me like this is just classic US empire building, disguised under a thick coat of media propaganda and misinformation.

Would love to hear your thoughts, I'm no foreign policy expert.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#119

Post by mrguyorama »

bumby wrote: post #33
baal80spam wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. Remember that Russia invaded and annexed Crimea "to save Russian citizens".

> It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. I mean, isn't this also the tactic used in the late 1800s in the western U.S. to give a reason to pacify Native Americans? Promote U.S. citizens into frontier homesteads and then use the military to protect them/annex land?

Yes, and we did the same thing to mexico in order to grab texas. How the heck does this change how bad it is?

What's the point of saying "America bad too"? So? America HAS done awful things in the past, that's not valid justification for a hostile annexation of another country's land.

Topics on Russia ALWAYS have whataboutism nonsense. It seems supporters of Russian actions so badly want the rest of the world to be shitty too, as if that would justify their actions instead of condemn them as well as everyone else

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#120

Post by reducesuffering »

arminiusreturns wrote: post #64
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from the Russian point of view, offering NATO membership to Ukraine is an act of agression and they've been wrecking Ukraine for this ever since One, Ukraine hasn't been invited to join NATO. Two, even if NATO had never entertained the idea, I'm sure Putin would pitch the existence of hats and teacups as clear evidence of Western aggression against Russia.

See I listen to people who know what they are talking about on this topic, people like Ray McGovern the former head of the soviet desk for the CIA, and I find their comments refreshingly nuanced, explaining things like how we promised Russia we wouldnt do an eastward expansion of nato, etc. ...and then I see comments like yours that just seem to want to make Russia into this mustache twirling always evil villian and…

> we promised Russia we wouldnt do an eastward expansion of nato, etc.

This is what Russia is promoting but it's a gross exaggeration. When the Berlin Wall fell, The Secretary of State at the time, James Baker, threw this out there to Gorbachev in early treaty talks as a "what if?", but others in US gov. said absolutely not, it never made it in the treaty, and Gorbachev never pushed for it. Gorbachev himself said that no promise or treaty was violated, but it was against the "spirit" of the assurances.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-...

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