why is NATO a threat? Has NATO ever started a conflict, seized territory, or imposed sanctions? Genuinely asking, I pretty ignorant here.
Russia has always in been conflict with Western powers, and has been invaded on several occasions.
Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war
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Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war
#42It's funny when the aggressor is "negotiating" to attack or not. The biggest bully in the region feeling "threatened" by its neighbours seeking any possible way to protect themselves from it. Like a government-level "Why are you hitting yourself?"
Crazy idea of the day: why not offer NATO membership to both Ukraine and Russia? Then if either side attacks the other, all the other members are obligated to defend against the aggressor. Entangling alliances are like abstraction. The only thing that solves it is more of it.
>Then if either side attacks the other, all the other members are obligated to defend against the aggressor.
The reason Ukraine hasn't been allowed to join NATO already is because the rest of the alliance isn't willing to make that promise (that they'll go to war with Russia to protect Ukraine).
Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
are the rest of the US allies in the world so powerless? Isn't this why we have the UN? Without the US, does the world just go back to war, death, and destruction everywhere? That seems crazy to me.
Go back to? The war, death, and destruction never stopped… we just exported it to others.
That's a ridiculous twisting of history. The last decades have been extremely peaceful, and you could argue that even since WW2 its been pretty peaceful. If you think because the US invaded a few countries over the last 100 years that qualifies as anything like what the world was like before, go read a bit more history.
Your post is especially insensitive to anyone outside of US history, like myself, in a country that was repeatedly invaded, and raped, and pillaged throughout history. I'm extremely glad for the last 30-40 years.
Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war
#44why is NATO a threat? Has NATO ever started a conflict, seized territory, or imposed sanctions? Genuinely asking, I pretty ignorant here.
NATO is a sticky situation with the Russians. The one thing the Russians fear more than anything else is encirclement, so any organization of potentially hostile nations is immediately looked upon with suspicion.
Also, they're still sore that some negotiators in 1990 promised more on NATO than the USA was willing to deliver. This is oft-repeated in the upper circles of the Kremlin, and regardless of its validity it's still a strong sentiment.
Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
Crazy idea of the day: why not offer NATO membership to both Ukraine and Russia? Then if either side attacks the other, all the other members are obligated to defend against the aggressor. Entangling alliances are like abstraction. The only thing that solves it is more of it.
> why not offer NATO membership to both Ukraine and Russia? NATO is a mutual defence pact. Russia is the most militarily aggressive country in Europe. Agreeing to defend the bully when their chickens come home to roost is a tough sell.
Most of them are internal conflicts though.
It's not such a crazy idea really, but I'd rather we just abolished NATO entirely.
I'm no fan of Russia, but I don't want to go to war just because they shoot down a Turkish fighter plane in Syria, etc.
Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war
#46It's funny when the aggressor is "negotiating" to attack or not. The biggest bully in the region feeling "threatened" by its neighbours seeking any possible way to protect themselves from it. Like a government-level "Why are you hitting yourself?"
from the Russian point of view, offering NATO membership to Ukraine is an act of agression and they've been wrecking Ukraine for this ever since.
> from the Russian point of view, offering NATO membership to Ukraine is an act of agression and they've been wrecking Ukraine for this ever since
One, Ukraine hasn't been invited to join NATO. Two, even if NATO had never entertained the idea, I'm sure Putin would pitch the existence of hats and teacups as clear evidence of Western aggression against Russia.
Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
are the rest of the US allies in the world so powerless? Isn't this why we have the UN? Without the US, does the world just go back to war, death, and destruction everywhere? That seems crazy to me.
Go back to? The war, death, and destruction never stopped… we just exported it to others.
Never stopped, true, but slowing down:
https://www.unl.edu/rhames/212/Stephen%20Pinker%20on%20the%2...
Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. Remember that Russia invaded and annexed Crimea "to save Russian citizens".
> It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. I mean, isn't this also the tactic used in the late 1800s in the western U.S. to give a reason to pacify Native Americans? Promote U.S. citizens into frontier homesteads and then use the military to protect them/annex land?
Not sure why’re your bringing the U.S. into this right now to bash it. If anything increased U.S. military presence in Poland is sorely needed.
Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can't support the sovereignty of Ukraine while also supporting Russia's hegemony over Ukraine. Ukraine has the right to defend itself against Russian aggression and to seek alliances which can help to that end. The Russian autocracy views democracy as a threat. This is really no different than Germany, prior to WW2, seeking to dominate the countries around it. Some of those countries had ethnic Germans living the…
the first part of the video by that professor, explains that ukraine is a very divided country, it's made up by two different groups of people, ukrainian-speakers and russian-speakers. So you gotta take this into account when considering what "Ukraine" wants. > Russian security assurances aren't about trying to defend the country against an encroaching NATO, but rather trying to restore as much as possible the domina…
> So you gotta take this into account when considering what "Ukraine" wants.
Ukraine is a sovereign state with internationally recognized borders.
Whether Russia thinks that Russia is “anywhere Russian is spoken” or “Anywhere Russians live” isn’t really relevant. “Ethnic Russians” living in Ukraine are Ukrainians, and no amount of unrest or even mistreatment of those citizens would be legal a cause for military action.
Either Russia recognizes the borders and sovereignty of Ukraine or it doesn’t. And to be honest, if Russia doesn’t which appears to be the case, then it should probably expect any smaller neighbors to join defense alliances.
Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war
#50The bigger question is "why now". Ukraine is not joining NATO or the EU any time soon. Russia has de facto annexed Crimea and its ongoing support for separatists in Donbas keeps the region unstable to its advantage. I suspect two reasons: Putin's flagging domestic support and Russia's (and to be honest, the world's) perception that America is currently so divided and weak it will be unable to offer much resistance th…
are the rest of the US allies in the world so powerless? Isn't this why we have the UN? Without the US, does the world just go back to war, death, and destruction everywhere? That seems crazy to me.
Yes pretty much. Look at Kazakhstan
dictator getting military support from Russia. Where is international support? (((