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Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

reuters.com

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Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#101

Post by reducesuffering »

nullifidian wrote: post #70
bsedlm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from the Russian point of view, offering NATO membership to Ukraine is an act of agression and they've been wrecking Ukraine for this ever since.

A foreign country joining an alliance could be an act of aggression only if you believe that that foreign country is yours, and shouldn't have the freedom to decide its associations or the way it secures itself. The Russians are talking about "spheres of influence", which is an entirely imperialistic concept, and demand to have their's respected, which is imperialistic behavior.

How is this reconciled with the US not allowing Cuba to receive armaments from the USSR or goods from other countries due to sanctions? Is country A violating country B and C's sovereignty when A imposes sanctions on C preventing free trade between B and C?

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#102

Post by float4 »

labrador wrote: post #2

I fully support the sovereignty of Ukraine, but I understand the Russian position from watching Prof. John Mearsheimer lectures, particularly this one: Why is Ukraine the West's Fault? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 John Mearsheimer John Mearsheimer is an American political scientist and international relations scholar, who belongs to the realist school of thought. He is the R. Wendell Harrison Distingui…

Thanks for sharing the video. I think the downvotes you got are unfair, as you're just linking to a talk from a, from the looks of it, very distinguished professor, so I upvoted you.

However, I would like to inform you that there's a good article that was written in response to Mearsheimer's talk: https://archive.is/6vdRf

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#103

Post by LBs7dPQbEw3tR42 »

esarbe wrote: post #51
7rm0LFlU6t8NnW1 wrote: post #12

USA annexes Hawaii, no one bats an eye. Russia annexes Crimea, everyone loses their minds.

I guess that's sarcasm? Because I honestly cannot tell. Yes, the U.S used its imperialist power to annex Hawai'i in 1897. That was before most of the modern foundations of international law - in particular article 2(4) of Chapter 1 of the United Nations Articles[0] - were put in place. No excuse, but still - different times. There are many aspects of U.S. foreign policy I positively abhor. But I'm not alone; the coup…

> Despite all that, the U.S. - at least since the end of WW2nd - hasn't seriously meddled in territorial growth or annexations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#104

Post by avmich »

remarkEon wrote: post #83
vizzah wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no imminent danger to those inhabitans when Russia annexed. They just seized the opportunity to take back important xUSSR territory. The inhabitants are mostly happy, though, as they were promised new horizons and no mandatory Ukrainian language, which they never spoken. All these regional problems are mainly due to the language. If Ukraine allowed Russian as it's second official (or at least regional) lang…

Russia has controlled Crimea since the 18th century. It's not an artifact of Soviet Union. >All these regional problems are mainly due to the language. If Ukraine allowed Russian as it's second official (or at least regional) language, Donbas would return back in a blink. And Crimea might follow. What? History goes back farther than the 20th century.

> History goes back farther than the 20th century.

And much farther than 18th century. Crimea has a long and rich history, Russian power is relatively young and not justified in the modern world. Wasn't one of the ideas of Helsinki's agreements to agree on non pursuing historical territorial disputes?

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#105

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #8
nickpp wrote: post #3

It's funny when the aggressor is "negotiating" to attack or not. The biggest bully in the region feeling "threatened" by its neighbours seeking any possible way to protect themselves from it. Like a government-level "Why are you hitting yourself?"

> Like a government-level "Why are you hitting yourself?" Putin has been a steady hand over Russia, but it's been at the cost of standards of living [1]. That's threatening neighboring regimes, which are only standing thanks to Moscow's support. Putin isn't dumb. He sees the writing on the wall. The bet is likely that the wave of nationalism that would accompany a war will outweigh its massive costs, directly and ind…

He needs a crisis to enact emergency powers and cancel the two term limit. Otherwise he has to burn six years as PM.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#106

Post by alkonaut »

Ygg2 wrote: post #55
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from the Russian point of view, offering NATO membership to Ukraine is an act of agression and they've been wrecking Ukraine for this ever since One, Ukraine hasn't been invited to join NATO. Two, even if NATO had never entertained the idea, I'm sure Putin would pitch the existence of hats and teacups as clear evidence of Western aggression against Russia.

Ok. But reverse positions. Mexico and Canada join Russian federation and Russia start building bases there. And this is despite Russia promising not to do that. I can't imagine USA acting in cool and peaceful manner when sword of Damocles hangs near them.

But NATO already has land borders to Russia! In five (more?) countries.

NATO has never made a formal “promise” or agreement not to expand. This is a myth that refuses to die it seems.

But this is beside the point. Ukraine isn’t a member so can hardly be responsible for what NATO does. Nor is it offered membership. And they were invaded preemptively? This whole line of reasoning that NATO has anything to do with the invasion of Ukraine years ago is a fabrication.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#107

Post by stfods »

VictorPath wrote: post #69
baal80spam wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. Remember that Russia invaded and annexed Crimea "to save Russian citizens".

> Russia invaded and annexed Crimea Russia invaded Crimea back when British red coats were stationed in New York City. The Russian military has been there ever since. When did the US invade the Guantanamo section of Cuba?

Russia has signed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Frie... in 1999

As mentioned in article 2, the High Contracting Parties shall respect each other′s territorial integrity and reaffirm the inviolability of the borders existing between them

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#108

Post by VictorPath »

alkonaut wrote: post #30
7rm0LFlU6t8NnW1 wrote: post #12

USA annexes Hawaii, no one bats an eye. Russia annexes Crimea, everyone loses their minds.

Colonialism went out of style a century ago and this whole discussion is based on the fact that Russia didn’t get that memo.

Someone should tell that to the Iraqis, Afghans, Palestine etc.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#109

Post by avmich »

dnautics wrote: post #77
elcritch wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair Crimea does have a majority ethnic Russian inhabitants. Wikipedia lists Crimea's demographics as 65% while others were lower at 58% or thereabout. Given many of those Russians were there from the Soviet era or direct descendants, it doesn't seem too crazy of a claim. The US and NATO countries have done worse for less. Now invading Ukraine? Thats another thing altogether.

Without defending russia: the same argument does apply for selected parts of ukraine that still have not been yet annexed by russia. I wonder how long it will take for russia to get tired of subsidizing crimea and they will beg to go back to the ukraine.

> I wonder how long it will take for russia to get tired of subsidizing crimea and they will beg to go back to the ukraine.

Starting already. I mean, more than before. I found Crimeans not very understanding Russia's realities, so now even thought money go to Crimea from the rest of Russia, the people in Crimea start to compare unfavorably to the alternative.

History moves slowly. However, Ukraine going closer to Europe would be a good illustration.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#110

Post by mrguyorama »

pc86 wrote: post #86
koheripbal wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But don't they have the right of self-determination if they want to join Russia?

They can move to Russia. They have as much right to move Crimea to Russia as citizens of Maine do to leave the US and join Canada - e.g. not much. This is all hypothetical though. What happened in reality is that Russia rolled tanks into a neighboring sovereign country, invading it, and stole a part of it. It's a blatant and egregious act of war.

I was just about to say: The vast majority of northern maine, including most of my family, is "French Canadian", some of them even having French as a first language. Go ahead and try telling them they should belong to Canada and it wouldn't be a big deal if Canada invaded and annexed them. You won't have many friends
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