Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war • Hacker News Board

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#61

Post by esarbe » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 7:05 PM UTC

bsedlm wrote: post #29

metabagel wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't support the sovereignty of Ukraine while also supporting Russia's hegemony over Ukraine. Ukraine has the right to defend itself against Russian aggression and to seek alliances which can help to that end. The Russian autocracy views democracy as a threat. This is really no different than Germany, prior to WW2, seeking to dominate the countries around it. Some of those countries had ethnic Germans living the…

the first part of the video by that professor, explains that ukraine is a very divided country, it's made up by two different groups of people, ukrainian-speakers and russian-speakers. So you gotta take this into account when considering what "Ukraine" wants. > Russian security assurances aren't about trying to defend the country against an encroaching NATO, but rather trying to restore as much as possible the domina…

> It 100% is all about Russian preventing a rival military base in a border country.

Not so sure about that. To me this looks more like a diversion from internal political problems, "Wag the dog" style.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#62

Post by Kilonzus » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 7:05 PM UTC

georgeecollins wrote: post #52

nickpp wrote: post #3

It's funny when the aggressor is "negotiating" to attack or not. The biggest bully in the region feeling "threatened" by its neighbours seeking any possible way to protect themselves from it. Like a government-level "Why are you hitting yourself?"

I agree that Russia is the bully in this case, but there is historical precedent for the bully to be the country that feels threatened. Before WW2 some Germans thought the that Germany would have to ally itself-- and become a client state-- to either the USSR or western powers in order to maintain its security. Going to war was insane, but the concern that Germany would become more of a client state than an independe…

Just wanted to chip in; great explanation. Often as a citizen of one country vs another it is tough to understand the logic behind some decisions but this actually made sense to me. Still think the costs of war is high but the logic behind entertaining such an idea is a little clearer.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#63

Post by democracy » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 7:05 PM UTC

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #26

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_and_Comprehensive_Free_Tr... This is what this is all about. It's not so much the money but also militaristic strategic assets. Moldova and Georgia doesnt have Russian war to deal with. Which really comes down to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol_Naval_Base Russia has lots of land all over the black sea. They could build a gigantic base near rostov-on-don. So why dont they?…

Putin doesn't want to lose power. All these propaganda, military moves are to give poor people something to take their eyes and minds off the reality - him robbing the country for 30 years. If you have absolute power for long time you know what happens.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#64

Post by arminiusreturns » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 7:06 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #46

bsedlm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from the Russian point of view, offering NATO membership to Ukraine is an act of agression and they've been wrecking Ukraine for this ever since.

> from the Russian point of view, offering NATO membership to Ukraine is an act of agression and they've been wrecking Ukraine for this ever since One, Ukraine hasn't been invited to join NATO. Two, even if NATO had never entertained the idea, I'm sure Putin would pitch the existence of hats and teacups as clear evidence of Western aggression against Russia.

See I listen to people who know what they are talking about on this topic, people like Ray McGovern the former head of the soviet desk for the CIA, and I find their comments refreshingly nuanced, explaining things like how we promised Russia we wouldnt do an eastward expansion of nato, etc.

...and then I see comments like yours that just seem to want to make Russia into this mustache twirling always evil villian and to me its people like you destroying hopes for good conversation that seem like the real villians.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#65

Post by jhrozek » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 7:07 PM UTC

metabagel wrote: post #38

Kremlin File is an excellent podcast primarily about Russia's use of hybrid warfare to advance its agenda. https://kremlinfile.com/

That sounds great, thanks I subscribed to it! Do you listen to any other similar podcasts you could recommend?

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#66

Post by esarbe » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 7:08 PM UTC

nullifidian wrote: post #35

dzonga wrote: post #4

I don't blame Russia's stance. I blame the cold war and the US's two pronged approach to most diplomacy matters. NATO was formed to halt the power of the soviet union. once the soviet union fell. NATO should've been disbanded. anyone with a pea of a brain would've seen the consequences of not abandoning nato, and now we're about to pay for those mistakes.

>I don't blame Russia's stance. As a Russian I say you are completely wrong. The current crisis is entirely manufactured by Putin and his authoritarian needs, which are contrary to the actual needs of the Russian people. The Baltic states joined NATO in 2004, and there isn't much difference in nuke flight time between a launch from Latvia or from Kharkiv, so the entire premise that Ukraine potentially joining NATO so…

Is there any reliable (international) source for Russian internal affairs that is not tainted by state propaganda? Can you give a recommendation?

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#67

Post by loourr » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

I feel that these articles rarely give any perspective on Russia's issue which is that Ukraine joining NATO would be a violation of prior agreements and would result in armaments being placed at their boarder which they view as a risk and security breach. The US is basically saying we don't care and we are going to do it despite your objections and then pretending Russia threatening military action is unilateral hostility.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#68

Post by vzaliva » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 7:10 PM UTC

dzonga wrote: post #4

I don't blame Russia's stance. I blame the cold war and the US's two pronged approach to most diplomacy matters. NATO was formed to halt the power of the soviet union. once the soviet union fell. NATO should've been disbanded. anyone with a pea of a brain would've seen the consequences of not abandoning nato, and now we're about to pay for those mistakes.

As Ukrainian I DO blame Russia's stance here. Ukraine is a free independent democratic country. It is free to join any alliances it wishes. This is not the reason to pre-emptively attack it. Also it is totally unprovoked. It is not like Ukraine is joining or welcomed to NATO anytime soon. The real reason is that Putin afraid of Ukraine: https://medium.com/@krokodil42/why-is-russia-afraid-of-ukrai...

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#69

Post by VictorPath » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 7:11 PM UTC

baal80spam wrote: post #13

nickpp wrote: post #3

It's funny when the aggressor is "negotiating" to attack or not. The biggest bully in the region feeling "threatened" by its neighbours seeking any possible way to protect themselves from it. Like a government-level "Why are you hitting yourself?"

It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. Remember that Russia invaded and annexed Crimea "to save Russian citizens".

> Russia invaded and annexed Crimea

Russia invaded Crimea back when British red coats were stationed in New York City. The Russian military has been there ever since.

When did the US invade the Guantanamo section of Cuba?

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#70

Post by nullifidian » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 7:11 PM UTC

bsedlm wrote: post #39

nickpp wrote: post #3

It's funny when the aggressor is "negotiating" to attack or not. The biggest bully in the region feeling "threatened" by its neighbours seeking any possible way to protect themselves from it. Like a government-level "Why are you hitting yourself?"

from the Russian point of view, offering NATO membership to Ukraine is an act of agression and they've been wrecking Ukraine for this ever since.

A foreign country joining an alliance could be an act of aggression only if you believe that that foreign country is yours, and shouldn't have the freedom to decide its associations or the way it secures itself. The Russians are talking about "spheres of influence", which is an entirely imperialistic concept, and demand to have their's respected, which is imperialistic behavior.