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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#721

Post by claytonjy »

alistairSH wrote: post #648
demosito666 wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for the flood, just a remark. As a devops engineer from Eastern Europe (with "senior" formal title) in a large international consultancy, these numbers sound like they are from another planet to me. $250k+/year to me sounds indistinguishable from $200000000000000000000/year.

FAANG employees, particularly on the West Coast, are an anomaly, even within the US. People also often include stock grants in listed comp, so be sure your comparing apples to apples. DC/Mid-Atlantic salaries at an established (non-FAANG) company are more like $85-$100k for a recent grad, $130-$170 for senior developer positions. Most of those jobs are in the suburbs, where a nice house is in the $500-$1million range…

Important to note that "senior dev" here means title, not actual seniority, e.g. ~5 yrs experience gets you in that range even at an early-stage startup in the Midwest.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#722

Post by tablespoon »

commandlinefan wrote: post #704
tablespoon wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These things might be reasonable in a startup with a dozen people, but we have over a hundred thousand. My opinion is that once an organization is a certain size, everything really needs to be written down and easily accessible. I shouldn't have to regularly ask people how to do basic things, it should be on a wiki. If it's complicated, it should be in a training video, or a user manual. Here's the root cause of yo…

> Here's the root cause of your bug Hang on, don't blame the agile manifesto here. Blame the management that adopted the agile manifesto as "do all the exact same things we used to do that didn't work, but call it 'agile'".

> Hang on, don't blame the agile manifesto here.

I totally can, and will. It's on them if they popularized slogans that can be too-easily misunderstood. That's meant that agile, in several respects, has been an exercise of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

> Blame the management that adopted the agile manifesto as "do all the exact same things we used to do that didn't work, but call it 'agile'".

That's clearly not what my employer did.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#723

Post by literallycancer »

fnord123 wrote: post #475
glitchalumni wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are talking about 50-60k before taxes here though (e.g. healthcare isn't included yet) - there really is not that much left in the end, especially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs). Also all inclusive contracts are quite common or some legal workarounds with payed overtime after x amount of hours (where x amount would be workin…

> specially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs). Debatable. In most European countries, if you lose your job you still have health cover. If you lose your job in the US you do not keep the company benefit health insurance (except as part of a severance package for a limited time). For H1-B visa holders, they must leave the country (…

What's stopping you from choosing and paying for your own health insurance in the US?

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#724

Post by sly010 »

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

I admit I quickly searched my company directory to see if you work where I do :)

The article mentions 3 things engineers care about: Technology, Intellection and Stability. Perhaps your pain fits into the 3rd category (if extrapolate a little).

If so, ironically, the first 2 at scale is what causes the lack of the 3rd.

When you make wider roads, the traffic will get worse, not better. Perhaps it's similar technology organizations. It's almost inevitable.

Anecdotally Amazon figured this stuff out by mandating well defined organizational boundaries (kind of like solid white dividers on some section of the highway, eh?) and by making each team responsible for its own developer infrastructure. It seems wasteful at first, but maybe less so at scale. Maybe someone working there can confirm/deny whether this is the case.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#725

Post by ryan93 »

pjmlp wrote: post #311
pattusk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that…

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

Faang engineers have most of that plus a few million extra to play with in retirement.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#726

Post by afarrell »

mupuff1234 wrote: post #494
ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think amazon is absolutely facing pressure from word getting out about working conditions. They raised their pay band for a middle level engineer 100k.

You'd think it would be cheaper for them to just improve working conditions.

So much of "working conditions" are habits and culture. Changing those is a lot harder than installing new lighting or safety guards. Worth it? yes, but there is lag time.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#727

Post by ModernMech »

kristopolous wrote: post #454
voakbasda wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What?! Age discrimination in the software industry??? Say it isn’t so!!! Seriously though, your insight is astonishingly spot on: LeetCode is a perfectly legal means of practicing age/lifestyle discrimination. Yet another innovative Silicon Valley dark pattern. Why is this the first I’m hearing it characterized this way?

They ask questions that kids are taught at 18/19. It's almost shocking; this is how you're selecting? People that are in their 40s aren't confused by the question but are more confused by why it's the question as being able to answer it is so disconnected from any metric of competency or quality. It'd be like saying "so you have an engineering degree, oh a masters from 20 years ago. Cool, remember Lagrange multiplier…

I feel like by the time you’re in your 40s, you should be able to leverage your network to bypass the technical interview. What are you doing at 40 going through the same hiring funnel as 18 year olds with no discernible reputation or experience? Maybe if you’re doing a career switch, sure, but if you’ve got 15-20 years under your belt then that’s a different story.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#728

Post by ryan93 »

fnord123 wrote: post #692
bluGill wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it isn't hard to find a job, and there are other options for health care while you are looking. I agree that it is stupid to tie health insurance to your job, but it isn't the big deal you make it out to be, so long as you have savings

I'm not an expert in american insurance policies (not even a novice, tbh) but if you have an ongoing condition and then lose insurance, and then get new insurance with your easy-to-get new job then would the ongoing condition be considered a pre-existing condition and hence fall into question regarding cover?

Not since 2009

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#729

Post by monkeynotes »

hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

Plus, as I found out, a $20k pay raise can equate to ~$8k extra in your pocket per year as the upper band tax rate is brutal here.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#730

Post by salawat »

commandlinefan wrote: post #704
tablespoon wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These things might be reasonable in a startup with a dozen people, but we have over a hundred thousand. My opinion is that once an organization is a certain size, everything really needs to be written down and easily accessible. I shouldn't have to regularly ask people how to do basic things, it should be on a wiki. If it's complicated, it should be in a training video, or a user manual. Here's the root cause of yo…

> Here's the root cause of your bug Hang on, don't blame the agile manifesto here. Blame the management that adopted the agile manifesto as "do all the exact same things we used to do that didn't work, but call it 'agile'".

>That's not real Agile

If I hear that damn mantra again, I'm going to puke. Xtreme Programming had it right If you aren't writing the damn manual, you aren't delivering an entire dimension of product to your user.

I sat down a little while ago to an old 80's handheld digital business organizer. The device itself was meh.

The manual tho! My God, I'd forgotten what it was like to read a primer on a product that had actually had some effort put into it. People think UX replaces training/SOP's/manuals, and it really doesn't. Your manual is how you mass produce user expertise. Your manual, at least by consumer's opinion is the difference between Yet Another Agile Heap Of Kludged API's and Business Processes and a truly coherent whole.

The problem with most Agile extremists though, is they never take Minimum viable documentation to heart. Or they completely externalize the cost of clear, complete communication to the User. If I had to put my finger on why, it would be because Engineering spends too much time writing and not enough time using their code outside of bench testing.

This isolates from the consequences of poor decisions; and prevents people from facing the One Great Problem of Humanity: Communication.

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