I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now • Hacker News Board

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#611

Post by brabel » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 12:20 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #311

pattusk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that…

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

I disagree. I also have all those things you mention. I own a house, but it's far from the city center and my commute is one-hour each way (which thanks to COVID I haven't had to endure for 2 years now, I can't even think of going back to that now). If I wanted to buy a house of similar level as mine, but much closer to the city center, it would cost so much I would need to earn something like twice as much as I earn now to be able to keep up with payments.

That, to me, shows that my salary is still well below the well off people in the city who can afford those houses (for an idea of what I'm talking about: houses in the more affordable areas around the city where you can get 20mins commutes or less, or even ride a bicycle to work, cost upwards of €700,000... with my current salary, the recommendation is that I shouldn't borrow more than €350,000 - around 4.5 times the yearly salary before taxes, so I need to first save around €350,000 or sell my current house and hope I'll make this much in return to be able to buy a house where I want... even then I would be playing with fire as interest rates are set to increase and any increase could get me just below water if I tried something like that). I would say that, given this, to be considered well off you need to make enough to be able to afford a house like I am talking about here, which would require you to probably earn at least €100,000 per year, which is well above my current pay and I don't know any companies here that pay this much for developers no matter how experienced (though I've heard it's possible - just never seen it concretely and never seen offers above 75,000).

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#612

Post by democracy » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 12:21 PM UTC

didip wrote: post #200

tjpnz wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>* The highest paying software companies employ LeetCode style interview. That is off-putting to a lot of people even though the money would be super sweet to have. Not only off-putting but out of reach to older engineers with family responsibilities. I would also add that the value proposition for working at a FAANG isn't nearly as competitive if based outside the US.

I agree. I would go as far as saying that LeetCode interview is biased against older engineers with families. Especially young families.

When I think of pros and cons of re-learning this crap I always re-evaluate what I have and what I want - and always come to the right conclusion - my time is better spent elsewhere - working on my own ideas or just more family time.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#613

Post by AQuantized » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 12:22 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #478

voakbasda wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What?! Age discrimination in the software industry??? Say it isn’t so!!! Seriously though, your insight is astonishingly spot on: LeetCode is a perfectly legal means of practicing age/lifestyle discrimination. Yet another innovative Silicon Valley dark pattern. Why is this the first I’m hearing it characterized this way?

That's just it, it's stuff you learn in computer science, then forget about because you don't use it in your day job. Your day job is writing CRUD services. That's the job. Our tech interview - ~8 hour take-home assignment, it was well-paid consultancy - asked people to basically demonstrate they could write a CRUD service. It had reading XML, some business logic / calculations, a REST/JSON API and a front-end. Ten y…

Hopefully you mean the 8-hour assignment was paid or that would be an unacceptable ask.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#614

Post by yodsanklai » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 12:24 PM UTC

reikonomusha wrote: post #29

Purely anecdotal: In my experience as a hiring manager seeing trends change over the past 10 years, and selecting from the top 10% of candidates by some vague metric, it's primarily about "does it pay a lot" and secondarily "does it offer full-remote"? A lot of my friends, former colleagues, and candidates I've failed to hire end up going to either a FAANG or a very successful brand-name company (typically a SV compa…

> This type of attitude doesn't appear to be so uncommon, at least among people I know.

It's my case too. I worked until 40 with a great job doing cool things, with a lot of free time. I'm not materialistic at all, don't care about wealth, social status and stuff. Yet, I started worrying for my retirement and savings, wasn't able to buy a house. Now I work for a FAANG for 5 times my previous salary. It's not easy, I don't always adhere to the company's values, oncalls suck, it's a lot about patching broken systems I didn't build. But money is important.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#615

Post by mcv » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 12:28 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #597

mcv wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the big question is: can you reach these salaries on a normal work week, or does this require sacrificing your personal life?

For some jobs, higher salaries correlate with worse working conditions. The warehouse worker who moves from day shift to night shift, or the oil worker who moves from onshore to oil rig work, can demand a higher salary. But more broadly, higher salaries correlate with better working conditions. That warehouse worker will have targets to hit every single shift, get in trouble for being five minutes late, will get writ…

That's true, but my impression is that many of those super high-paying jobs in the US expect 60-80 hour work weeks. That's a pretty hefty sacrifice. If you can also get those salaries on a 36 hour work week, then that's definitely better.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#616

Post by wreath » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 12:28 PM UTC

fnord123 wrote: post #475

glitchalumni wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are talking about 50-60k before taxes here though (e.g. healthcare isn't included yet) - there really is not that much left in the end, especially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs). Also all inclusive contracts are quite common or some legal workarounds with payed overtime after x amount of hours (where x amount would be workin…

> specially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs). Debatable. In most European countries, if you lose your job you still have health cover. If you lose your job in the US you do not keep the company benefit health insurance (except as part of a severance package for a limited time). For H1-B visa holders, they must leave the country (…

Depends where in Europe. In Germany, if you lose your job you still have to pay for health insurance, at least the first three months until your unemployment kicks in (assuming you're eligible for it, like in most cases) and I don't know if unemployment covers your health insurance.

If you are married and you and your spouse were on the same statutory health insurance, then you're covered by your spouse. Which can be the case in the US depending on your spouse's coverage.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#617

Post by a_imho » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 12:29 PM UTC

hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

Wishful thinking at best, anchoring the narrative at worst. It is always about compensation (which money is one big part of). Sure, there is some overhead to changing jobs, but if it is all covered people will switch. It is pretty easy to see if one looks in the other direction. Would people who supposedly passionate about their jobs do it for free? If yes, they are either lying or it is not strictly a job. It is always a function of compensation with a capital C, even if it is expected to not be frank about it.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#618

Post by bluGill » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 12:31 PM UTC

fnord123 wrote: post #475

glitchalumni wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are talking about 50-60k before taxes here though (e.g. healthcare isn't included yet) - there really is not that much left in the end, especially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs). Also all inclusive contracts are quite common or some legal workarounds with payed overtime after x amount of hours (where x amount would be workin…

> specially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs). Debatable. In most European countries, if you lose your job you still have health cover. If you lose your job in the US you do not keep the company benefit health insurance (except as part of a severance package for a limited time). For H1-B visa holders, they must leave the country (…

But it isn't hard to find a job, and there are other options for health care while you are looking.

I agree that it is stupid to tie health insurance to your job, but it isn't the big deal you make it out to be, so long as you have savings

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#619

Post by sdevonoes » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 12:34 PM UTC

Reason you can't hire engineers is: stupid tech interviews (i.e., leetcode) and low pay (Western Europe).

My company gets tons of candidates. We reject 90% of them because: they do not pass our tech interview (I couldn't pass them either and I have been working here for 3 years!); when do they pass we cannot pay what they are asking for.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#620

Post by manapause » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 12:34 PM UTC

kodemager wrote: post #332

user123456780 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being masterfully either technically, socially, or politically have a lot to do with it too, it seems. I don't think you need to be a master to get more money. What I have noticed as a hiring manager/tech lead is candidates/team members fall into either asking for more money or not. I have guys on my team who if they asked for money I could easily add 20 - 50k to their salary. But they don't, they also don't shop t…

I understand this management philosophy well, but it’s also very dangerous because you risk hiring people like me, who share salary information with everyone that wants to. A few decades ago I started working at a place where a couple of really talented people had never asked for a raise. I negotiated indirectly by talking about better opportunities and head hunters with my boss as well as asking for more pay. I got…

Just as the tools and processes in building a product must be documented and improved over time ... so too must the compensations of the employees be improved, documented via employee handbooks, and communicated by culture that "if our business succeeds - you will succeed for it is written!"

and the talented, who are focused on their craft - will feel that the company will take care of them _as a matter of course_.

If the talent feels a Quality of Life upgrading process is met - then they will stop wondering how green the grass is somewhere else. Then and only then will the business be ready to foster a culture of mentorship, collaboration, and documentation from Senior to Junior.

It makes me very sad to see a junior developer I had taken onto my team at my last company 3 years ago - a budding talent in systems who didn't know how to ask for help - is still considered a "junior developer." if you don't know how to give people hope don't be surprised if they're hopeless.