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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#641

Post by lc9er »

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

Sounds like you are describing “institutional knowledge”. In addition to good documentation, an org needs to maintain employee retention, so you have people that know the what and why’s of all the automated processes you’re seeing.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#642

Post by pjmlp »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #534
pjmlp wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pick companies that have IG Metal deals, for example. Quite a well known names do it.

>Pick companies that have IG Metal deals Cherry picking a specific company/domains doesn't help your argument of "everyone in Europe has it so good". Yeah, everyone knows IG metal in Germany has it good. Others? Maybe not so much.

Whatever I would have written, people would always nitpick one way or the other, so I simplified it anyway.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#643

Post by tomxor »

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

> hard to describe succinctly.

Maybe "Institutional Complexity"?

Some degree of complexity is intrinsic to the problem domain, but it's the incidental complexity that emerges as a thoughtless side-effects of other efforts that is the most annoying, especially when it compounds.

To flip your comment on it's head... Some of my most satisfying projects have been the ones that eliminated this type of complexity where I work, because they improved the quality of life of everyone I work with and gradually remove all but the necessary work. However because these things are usually difficult to isolate and deeply engrained, this is only usually possible once you've gained enough trust and autonomy, which I suppose makes it a hard sell for a new job.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#644

Post by madengr »

michaelt wrote: post #597
mcv wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the big question is: can you reach these salaries on a normal work week, or does this require sacrificing your personal life?

For some jobs, higher salaries correlate with worse working conditions. The warehouse worker who moves from day shift to night shift, or the oil worker who moves from onshore to oil rig work, can demand a higher salary. But more broadly, higher salaries correlate with better working conditions. That warehouse worker will have targets to hit every single shift, get in trouble for being five minutes late, will get writ…

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#645

Post by Tainnor »

wreath wrote: post #616
fnord123 wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> specially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs). Debatable. In most European countries, if you lose your job you still have health cover. If you lose your job in the US you do not keep the company benefit health insurance (except as part of a severance package for a limited time). For H1-B visa holders, they must leave the country (…

Depends where in Europe. In Germany, if you lose your job you still have to pay for health insurance, at least the first three months until your unemployment kicks in (assuming you're eligible for it, like in most cases) and I don't know if unemployment covers your health insurance. If you are married and you and your spouse were on the same statutory health insurance, then you're covered by your spouse. Which can be…

it's impossible (i.e. illegal) in Germany to be uninsured. you may have to pay yourself depending on the situation (I had to do it once between jobs), but the amount you have to pay is not crazy, and there are no people who have no health insurance because they can't afford it. For example, if you are eligible for ALG II (aka Hartz IV, i.e. long-term unemployment benefits), your health insurance is automatically paid for.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#646

Post by kriro »

I find it interesting that many companies focus on hireing experienced developers and the problems surrounding that. I think the smarter and more long term play is to massively improve the experience of university graduates (or anyone really) starting at a company. Have a very clear track and get them to be useful ASAP and make it enjoyable for them and possibly have them stay forever. Developing your own developers seems like a better strategy than trying to hire for fit (in a vacuum).

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#647

Post by pards »

codethief wrote: post #581
mcv wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite all of that, I think engineers are underpaid in Europe (and presumably East Asia). I just left a job at a major bank where all the non-engineer roles got paid, or at least could be paid more than I got. There were 5 pay scales for engineers, the top 2 of which weren't even being used. I got there from a freelance contract, and I had to take a serious pay cut to continue working on the project. It was a really…

Slightly off-topic questions, because I've been thinking about freelancing lately: - Where/how do you (as a freelancer) find your clients? (Do you focus on clients from the financial industry?) - Where are those clients from (location-wise)? - Do you work remotely? If yes, does your timezone need to match your client's timezone? Put differently: How flexible are you when it comes to working hours?

In Toronto, Canada, freelancing or contracting is a way to pay senior engineers more than the company's standard fixed pay bands. The FTE pay brackets aren't great and we have a great public health care system so there's not much advantage to benefits packages.

Contractors are paid from the project budget (capex) and often don't have to go through the central HR department which allows projects to pay what they need to in order to attract the right people. We typically work alongside FTEs but we get "rolled off" projects as they ramp down at the end whereas the FTEs either stay on or get reassigned within the company.

For me, contracts typically last 1-3 years.

- I find my clients through my network of people I've worked with in the past

- My clients are usually based in Toronto like me

- I've been 100% remote since March 2020.

With respect to remote, my current client is trying to get people back to the office in a hybrid model. If they force it then I'll probably look elsewhere.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#648

Post by alistairSH »

demosito666 wrote: post #546
Hydraulix989 wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just the first year out of school pay. It goes up to mid six figures quickly once you get a promotion or two.

Sorry for the flood, just a remark. As a devops engineer from Eastern Europe (with "senior" formal title) in a large international consultancy, these numbers sound like they are from another planet to me. $250k+/year to me sounds indistinguishable from $200000000000000000000/year.

FAANG employees, particularly on the West Coast, are an anomaly, even within the US. People also often include stock grants in listed comp, so be sure your comparing apples to apples.

DC/Mid-Atlantic salaries at an established (non-FAANG) company are more like $85-$100k for a recent grad, $130-$170 for senior developer positions. Most of those jobs are in the suburbs, where a nice house is in the $500-$1million range.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#649

Post by lbriner »

At a certain size, though, workplaces become unavoidably bad places to work.

Imagine you have ambition and you work in a team of 100 people. How do you get promotion if you don't want to leave? Headline-grabbing stuff, not good, solid, written down, maintainable stuff. It is said many times but it is true.

The only other way you might choose the good over the noticeable (assuming you want promotion) is when you get genuine recognition from someone you look up to. Imagine getting called out at a department meeting for sorting out the documentation or automating a load of rubbish stuff.

I guess either way you want to be noticed/make a difference right? This is easy in small companies because everyone makes it better or worse. Once you reach 50+, I think it all starts going downhill. Maybe some of these companies just need to organise as microbusinesses - something that microservices promised, so that everyone can make a difference.

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