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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#171

Post by rr808 »

anonporridge wrote: post #75
giantg2 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"that can get them retired easily by their mid 30s" Maybe a small subset. The median dev salary is $110k. So no, only a very small number are able to retire in their 30s.

The absolute value of your salary doesn't tell you anything about how long it takes to get to retirement (or more accurately, financial independence). That's exclusively a function of your spending and saving rates. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...

> You can earn 5% investment returns after inflation during your saving years

This is very unlikely long term. Right now treasuries are 5% less then inflation. Lots of FIRE people are going to get shafted.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#172

Post by gnufied »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #39
reikonomusha wrote: post #29

Purely anecdotal: In my experience as a hiring manager seeing trends change over the past 10 years, and selecting from the top 10% of candidates by some vague metric, it's primarily about "does it pay a lot" and secondarily "does it offer full-remote"? A lot of my friends, former colleagues, and candidates I've failed to hire end up going to either a FAANG or a very successful brand-name company (typically a SV compa…

I was looking for this comment. The OP and the current top comment seem to think that many engineers wouldn't jump for 10-20K increases. While that is true if they are in a good role, many salary increases from jumping are high double digits right now. Compensation, WLB, and benefits matter FAR FAR more for the majority of people than "good projects" or "smart colleagues". If you want those and can't get it in your j…

> "good projects" or "smart colleagues"

Those are very very good for retaining people you already have though, so while not super important for hiring they are important for keeping the folks you hired (after all, what is the point if you keep losing people you hire).

> If you want those and can't get it in your job, well that's what open source work is for.

Not necessarily. If your area of interest aligns with your work then even open source work is more productive if you have a use case for it. For example - say my interest is distributed systems, then technically my work will have more impact if it is being used on large clusters with large number of concurrent systems. Open source does not happen in vacuum.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#173

Post by leeoniya »

anonporridge wrote: post #151
leeoniya wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> getting married and having kids i have not met anyone yet who is married with kids but would have preferred an earlier retirement instead. kids are more expensive than all the other things combined that you listed - no amount of living in the basement or saving 30k on having no car is going to make up for that.

People regret having kids all the time. It's just not socially acceptable to talk about openly. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/m9vh8a/serious_p... https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/1wvx04/serious_d... https://www.reddit.com/r/regretfulparents/

if you read the links you posted, a large portion of these are from people who weren't ready, or had kids with disabilities or adopted without enough vetting, or were not financially ready, etc.

all parents go through difficult periods where they do regret not sleeping, or the work. but on the whole, the vast majority would not trade their kids for lonely family-less early retirement.

just because you found 10k comments on the internet doesnt imply this sentiment applies to 7bn people.

it's great that you'll have no regret about never having kids but instead have a ton of money and free time to spend on something else for 40 years.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#174

Post by coding123 »

Money IS the motivating factor, but what good is a $20k bump if you don't find a niche at the new company?

I've been there - that company you didn't like, the boss that didn't like you, etc.. Every since that company I have been a LOT more selective of who I want to work with and don't just take a salary bump over SUPER job stability.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#175

Post by reikonomusha »

digianarchist wrote: post #140
didip wrote: post #87

The article is concise but missing a lot of real-life examples: * The highest paying software companies employ LeetCode style interview. That is off-putting to a lot of people even though the money would be super sweet to have. * Some wannabe startups also employ LeetCode style interview even though they don't pay anywhere near FAANG/Unicorns. * You know what's worst than LeetCode style interview? LeetCode style inte…

The companies that pay 80% of FAANG salaries without the LeetCode whiteboard bullshit are out there.

Can confirm, we do a low-pressure, non-timed, non-puzzle, somewhat realistic, short take-home exercise. But we don't (and can't) add 20+% to your salary in RSUs.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#176

Post by HWR_14 »

Apocryphon wrote: post #46
reikonomusha wrote: post #29

Purely anecdotal: In my experience as a hiring manager seeing trends change over the past 10 years, and selecting from the top 10% of candidates by some vague metric, it's primarily about "does it pay a lot" and secondarily "does it offer full-remote"? A lot of my friends, former colleagues, and candidates I've failed to hire end up going to either a FAANG or a very successful brand-name company (typically a SV compa…

On the flip side, dissatisfaction about engineering work conditions at AMZN (the notorious PIP culture) is a rising deterrent.

Is dissatisfaction with PIP dissatisfaction with work conditions? I thought it was dissatisfaction with job security and the knowledge that your job was less dependent on your work than on political games your manager had to play on your behalf.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#177

Post by loeg »

lhorie wrote: post #155
loeg wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say kids are incompatible with FIRE? They add some expense, but it is not insurmountable with a high income like many senior software engineers enjoy. There are prominent FIRE folks with kids -- e.g., "Mr. Money Mustache."

I wouldn't go as far as say they're incompatible; I'm sure it's doable. But there's a pretty big difference in believability between the claim that "engineers are much more likely to be FIRE people, to the extent it makes a noticeable difference in the engineering job market, now of all times" vs "FIRE people w/ kids exist, but are outliers among outliers"

Ok, that seems reasonable. I got stuck on "there's plenty of engineers who have kids (hence, very much not FIRE)," which seems like an oversimplification of your views.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#178

Post by throwawayboise »

leetcrew wrote: post #144
oblio wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple is not easy. The vast majority of people like to spend. Who can blame them? You can take your money to your grave, but what use is it then?

you might as well ask what's the point of insurance if you never wreck your car. I have some nice things, but none of them bring me as much peace as having a deep buffer for unexpected problems. if I learned that I would die in a month, I wouldn't be sad that I hadn't managed to burn all my money.

I am in the same mindset. I take deep satisfaction that I have something substantial to leave to my kids. I don't want to spend it on me. I don't like to travel, and I don't like "stuff." I have a few hobbies but they are not expensive.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#179

Post by tjpnz »

didip wrote: post #87

The article is concise but missing a lot of real-life examples: * The highest paying software companies employ LeetCode style interview. That is off-putting to a lot of people even though the money would be super sweet to have. * Some wannabe startups also employ LeetCode style interview even though they don't pay anywhere near FAANG/Unicorns. * You know what's worst than LeetCode style interview? LeetCode style inte…

>* The highest paying software companies employ LeetCode style interview. That is off-putting to a lot of people even though the money would be super sweet to have.

Not only off-putting but out of reach to older engineers with family responsibilities. I would also add that the value proposition for working at a FAANG isn't nearly as competitive if based outside the US.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#180

Post by [deleted] »

anonporridge wrote: post #103
dnissley wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute value of your salary does highly correlate with cost of living, unfortunately. Which may have an effect on your savings rate.

Yes it does. If you have a high salary, you are probably living in a HCOL area. If you have a low salary for the same kind of work, then you are probably living in a LCOL area. The savings rates of these different individuals could be the same if the salary difference is proportional to the cost of living difference.

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