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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#141

Post by loeg »

lhorie wrote: post #124
anonporridge wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, I feel like engineers are much more likely to be attracted the FIRE mentality and tend to have the incomes and low spending habits that can get them retired easily by their mid 30s. I'm personally in that boat, and frankly, I'm a little bored but not bored enough to go back to work as an SE full time. If companies offered more part time work and highly flexible work, it might be enough to drag me back in. Even…

I haven't really seen a whole lot of evidence that there's any stronger correlation between FIRE and engineers compared to other jobs (in fact, many FIRE blogs are from non-eng people). And conversely, there's plenty of engineers who have kids (hence, very much not FIRE). The vast majority end up going down that route, in fact, at least in my experience.

Why do you say kids are incompatible with FIRE? They add some expense, but it is not insurmountable with a high income like many senior software engineers enjoy. There are prominent FIRE folks with kids -- e.g., "Mr. Money Mustache."

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#142

Post by redisman »

didip wrote: post #87

The article is concise but missing a lot of real-life examples: * The highest paying software companies employ LeetCode style interview. That is off-putting to a lot of people even though the money would be super sweet to have. * Some wannabe startups also employ LeetCode style interview even though they don't pay anywhere near FAANG/Unicorns. * You know what's worst than LeetCode style interview? LeetCode style inte…

> The highest paying software companies employ LeetCode style interview

Ugh yeah it’s ridiculous. We can’t hire anyone! Have you considered not putting candidates through months of studying to memorize a bunch of algorithm tricks and then grilling them for 5-10 hours total on those? No - that’s not what the cargo cult manual says.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#143

Post by sigstoat »

giantg2 wrote: post #80
JimDabell wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It varies based on where you are and the specifics of the deal. 15–30% of the first year‘s salary is normal in my experience.

That's fucking disgusting.

you realize it doesn't come out of the employee's salary, right? the company has to cough it up separately.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#144

Post by leetcrew »

oblio wrote: post #88
anonporridge wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute value of your salary doesn't tell you anything about how long it takes to get to retirement (or more accurately, financial independence). That's exclusively a function of your spending and saving rates. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...

Simple is not easy. The vast majority of people like to spend. Who can blame them? You can take your money to your grave, but what use is it then?

you might as well ask what's the point of insurance if you never wreck your car. I have some nice things, but none of them bring me as much peace as having a deep buffer for unexpected problems. if I learned that I would die in a month, I wouldn't be sad that I hadn't managed to burn all my money.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#146

Post by loeg »

giantg2 wrote: post #89
anonporridge wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute value of your salary doesn't tell you anything about how long it takes to get to retirement (or more accurately, financial independence). That's exclusively a function of your spending and saving rates. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...

Salary is the absolute ceiling for savings rate, so I'd say it's a big factor.

In the same trivial sense, it's also an absolute ceiling for expense rate. Expenses are essential, and it's all about relative savings rate. Salary, ignorant of expenses, is meaningless for these discussions.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#147

Post by ehnto »

hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

Being able to work alongside the people you're solving the problem for is a really great intrinsic motivator. You can be abstracted away quite a bit as an engineer, which makes it so most of your motivations have to come from within and it ends up being quite a narcissitic evaluation of your role. You're not always going to love the problems you're solving, but when you know it's part of a bigger picture you believe in I think that's a huge motivator.

I think most people of working age now have been part of the individualism movement, which leaves us pretty ill-prepared to deal with the feelings of discontent when we finally succeed at "getting ours" and realize it wasn't all that fulfilling. Solving problems that matter to the community you live in, or the greater society you're part of, has so much more intrinsic reward.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#148

Post by it_does_follow »

Waterluvian wrote: post #15

I’ve gotten 7 recruitment emails since Sunday and none of them have come close to sufficiently explaining what the company or job is for me to even consider responding. It’s bizarre how secretive they are. I imagine the recruiters are looking out for their own interests. Recruiters are in the way.

> Recruiters are in the way.

I'm astounded at how awful recruiters have gotten. What's insane to me is how no one in the industry seems to question the spray and pray approach to recruiting.

There are a few "whoa that's neat!" things on my resume such that if a recruiter or hiring manager looked at it they would certainly notice. This works as a great test for if a recruiter is really looking at me or just spamming a keyword on my linkedin. This filters out essentially all recruiter spam.

What's funny though is how much energy companies spend to pretend like they've read your resume and want the actual you as a candidate in any way. Facebook recently tried a tactic of sending email from the hiring manager. "I really want you on my team, let's find a time to chat!" But clearly it was just an automated email since the message didn't mention any of my resume that might make me a particularly interesting candidate for the team. Another company clearly automatically scraped my resume to make it sound like the read it, but picked the most bizarre, nonsensical things to pull from it.

The funny thing is, even though I love my current job, if you came to me as said "it_does_follow, I've noticed that you worked on XXX and YYY projects, we really need someone who could do that type of work for our team, we're working on exactly these type of problems" and they touched on the actual work I've done that I'm proud of, I would jump on a call in a heart beat.

Every engineer really would prefer to work on problems in their particular domain that interest them, for a team that values them as an individual. I am certain that if recruiters spent their time targeting a much smaller pool of good candidates that really are a match for the role, they would have much higher success rates.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#149

Post by wglb »

rsweeney21 wrote: post #102
Waterluvian wrote: post #15

I’ve gotten 7 recruitment emails since Sunday and none of them have come close to sufficiently explaining what the company or job is for me to even consider responding. It’s bizarre how secretive they are. I imagine the recruiters are looking out for their own interests. Recruiters are in the way.

It’s because if you apply directly, they don’t get paid for their work. So they hide the details until you talk to them. I’m a software engineer that started a recruiting company. The current state of the industry is pretty bad. We are trying a different approach- we are transparent. We share all the details about the company right out of the gate. Including salary info. We refuse to work with companies that won’t le…

Better recruiters are retained. They get paid for a search, not for a hire. And they don't spam you on linked in.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#150

Post by user123456780 »

reikonomusha wrote: post #96
giantg2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked my normal week and 1/1-1/2. Now I'm officially on call for the next 7 days. I'm a midlevel with 10 years experience making under $100k. Fml

It's an under-discussed topic that this apparent utopia isn't available to everyone. Race, gender presentation, academic background, country of residence or origin, Twitter blue-check, etc. all seem to be correlated (no numbers; purely anecdotal) to those who enjoy (or don't) this utopia. Being masterfully technical, social, or political have a lot to do with it too, it seems.

> Being masterfully either technically, socially, or politically have a lot to do with it too, it seems.

I don't think you need to be a master to get more money. What I have noticed as a hiring manager/tech lead is candidates/team members fall into either asking for more money or not.

I have guys on my team who if they asked for money I could easily add 20 - 50k to their salary. But they don't, they also don't shop themselves about. They're low risk of jumping ship and if they do, I can offer them a huge amount to stay or with the savings I have made over the years I can replace them at market rates, suffer the disruption of introducing a new team member and still be ahead.

I luckily learnt early on the best thing to do for your career is just ask for more money. Every 6 months I ask for a pay rise. I don't always get it and if I don't I ask 'what do I need to do get more money'. Your boss should be able to tell you what you need to do to justify another 10 - 20k to your salary

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