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Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

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Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#271
post #216
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Financial analysts != energy technologists with a scientific background. Its small money on a broad industry bet thats all in an economy with very few quality investments available. Don't read too much into it.

So you think it's in GS's best interest to make uninformed decisions on a continual basis? Seriously?

Never said it was uninformed. I was implying that this really isn't a big deal except for the company who got invested in.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#272
post #216
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Financial analysts != energy technologists with a scientific background. Its small money on a broad industry bet thats all in an economy with very few quality investments available. Don't read too much into it.

So you think it's in GS's best interest to make uninformed decisions on a continual basis? Seriously?

Put another way it sounds like a corporate investor or VC into an industry they know a little about but have heard good things. Goldman Sachs is not known to be a good energy investor. Who knows maybe now they are.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#273
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't really the same types of systems. Pneumatic "muscle pressure" is common in lots of industrial applications, especially those that operate in austere environments. But those are different than the tech being researched in the article in large part because the mechanical compressors in industrial applications are hugely inefficient. Many constant volume compressors have 90%+ of the energy as waste heat. I b…

How does this work? How can you compress air without raising the pressure? Are you sure you don't mean adiabatic?

According to PV=nRT (ideal gas law), no you cannot in a closed system!!! But Hydrostor isn't violating any laws of physics -- they are simply capturing that heat so that it doesn't become waste heat!

Hydrostor has a thermal management system that captures the heat and stores is during compression. Then it reuses the heat when it is decompressing the air.[1]

This seem extremely promising as a much smaller footprint solution than pumped storage and much more sustainable and lower cost than any other energy storage solution. I just heard about them today, and I'm extremely impressed.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWjwwKSR78

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#274
post #136

In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company

The Amish use compressed air: http://www.amishfamilyvalues.com/amish/amish-electricity/

This is interesting:

"This was a crisis. Without electricity, the Amish couldn’t store milk, and the church was adamant that Amish were not going connect to the local electric company. Finally a solution was found. It was decided that diesel generators could be used to power the refrigerators. This decision allowed the Amish to continue their tradition as dairy farmers without having to use public electricity."

So the Amish are allowed to use electricity, just not from the public grid? Generators seem like a weird loophole to their own rules.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#275

In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company

I once took a tour of the Mabel Tainter theater in Menomonie Wisconsin. The original light fixtures had been built to work off of both gas and electricity, just in case the whole newfangled electricity thing didn’t work out.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#276
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Amish use compressed air: http://www.amishfamilyvalues.com/amish/amish-electricity/

This is interesting: "This was a crisis. Without electricity, the Amish couldn’t store milk, and the church was adamant that Amish were not going connect to the local electric company. Finally a solution was found. It was decided that diesel generators could be used to power the refrigerators. This decision allowed the Amish to continue their tradition as dairy farmers without having to use public electricity." So th…

If they are against centralisation, that makes sense; but then, unless you drill your own wells and refine the crude yourself, you're still getting fuel from someone else.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#277
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of system is used today in many modern industrial facilities. Case in point: Amazon warehouses. Lots of the mechanical automations inside some of those warehouses are powered by compressed air in open loop systems. As the conveyor pushes the item off, onto a different lane, there's a distinct hiss of air escaping. The movement of the machine was powered by compressed air. Out in the parking lot in these fac…

The common term is "pneumatics" and the components are prevalent in all automation and manufacturing. The air required is typically compressed on site. Pneumatic actuators are relatively inexpensive, have a binary state that is easy to control, and offer a high power density.

How do they avoid bacteria/mould from growing in tanks and flocking the pipes and releasing in the room? Do such systems ever get cleaned up?

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an article in a woodworking magazine about how one Amish woodworking shop was built to avoid using electricity. The whole shop ran off a stationary diesel engine driving a shaft in a floor trench and belt drove the larger stationary machinery like band saws, table saws, planers, drill presses, joiners and so on. But what about hand tools? A large belt driven air compressor off the diesel engine handled a myria…

This is basically how most indistrial setups was before engines and motors became a commodity. You had water wheels as your main power source, from which other tools was driven via belts and gears. Later the waterwheel was replaced by an electric motor or a fuel powered engine - but still built around just one source of power, with elaborate setups to drive different tools. With the added benefits you could build fac…

There is a wonderful museum in Windsor Vermont called American Precision Museum which still has the original overhead shaft and pulley system along with machinery. Went there in the early 90's as a kid and they did mention that it was converted to electric and the motors were still working supposedly.

The Edison museum in Orange NJ also has such a preserved shop setup but electric driven by one or two big motors on an elevated platform.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#279

I knew Danielle Fong from Lightsail Energy, folded in 2016, and at that time compressed air seemed like a great solution especially for LatAm that needed robust low cost batteries for critical infrastructure (like hospitals) on an unreliable power grid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielle_Fong Would be great to see this technology reach maturity!

She's on HN, curious what her thoughts are: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=DaniFong

https://twitter.com/DanielleFong/status/1481339424730497025?...

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#280
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Amish use compressed air: http://www.amishfamilyvalues.com/amish/amish-electricity/

This is interesting: "This was a crisis. Without electricity, the Amish couldn’t store milk, and the church was adamant that Amish were not going connect to the local electric company. Finally a solution was found. It was decided that diesel generators could be used to power the refrigerators. This decision allowed the Amish to continue their tradition as dairy farmers without having to use public electricity." So th…

If you think this is weird, wait until you see the convoluted/clever things that some Jewish people do to work around the sabbath.

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-enci...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode

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