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Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

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Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#131
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't correct. Deep mines are notoriously hot, because you're digging towards magma. Google says temps increase by 3° C for every 100m.

Naive question but couldn't our forerunners who otherwise succumbed to cold in harsher climates have exploited this fact to dig subterranean villages and towns? What's the element I'm missing as to why they didn't?

Ever tried to dig down a few 100m in your garden?

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#132
post #38

Can someone explain their revenue to me? They claim 1m in revenue from their existing product which is: "1.75 megawatts (MW) of peak power output; a 2.2 MW charge rating; and 10+ megawatt-hours (MWh) of storage capacity" How does that equal 1m in revenue? You have to pay to charge your air-battery during low-cost hours and then discharge it during high cost hours to make the difference in revenue. The issue is, you c…

They are likely operating on the wholesale markets, which are market priced. For the western grid there is a significantly wider price range of prices. On peak days in the summer, prices can go up above $1,000/mwh in the late afternoon for several days. During the late fall/early spring, there are negative prices in the late morning (like $20-$50/mwh) due to extremely high solar production and low demand, so utilitie…

How can you make a storage system that only slurps power off of another grid that "literally pays you to use electricity"? during those times?

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an article in a woodworking magazine about how one Amish woodworking shop was built to avoid using electricity. The whole shop ran off a stationary diesel engine driving a shaft in a floor trench and belt drove the larger stationary machinery like band saws, table saws, planers, drill presses, joiners and so on. But what about hand tools? A large belt driven air compressor off the diesel engine handled a myria…

Also adds a ton of pollution from using (often old and poorly maintained) Diesel engines in the name of avoiding the electric grid. Adding to that, compressed air is a much less efficient source of power than using electricity directly.

Yes, but air tools can be really nice to use,esp for grinding, cutting, sanding operations. For one, you can press/dig hard enough to bog or stop the tool and nothing hapoens - you just pick it uo and it speeds back uo again - do that with an electric tool and you'll have a dead motor paperweight real soon.

Air tools can also be lighter and no worries abt damaging the cord or carrying the battery.

Many good air tools can also have a better feel, especially if you can control the air flow trigger.

(I don't have a bias either way, use both in my shop, but just wanted to point out that both have advantages)

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#134
post #56

It's probably some kind of hedge strategy for energy crises like the recent Texas disaster (which appears to have been very profitable for GS [1]). Having this capacity around when other sources go down means they'll be able to provide power in similar situations and so reap massive profits. Climate chaos == $$$ I guess. > Bloomberg March 5, 2021 > Goldman Sachs Group Inc. could gain more than $200 million from the p…

This is where capitalism goes off the rails. Instead of investing $250m into making the power grid more secure and reliable, they choose to invest in profiting off disaster.

As others said, energy storage technology is going to be the only thing that makes renewable energy more than a curiosity. Renewable energy is neither reliable nor predictable which is why it can not replace base load requirements.

However, if we had sufficient energy storage capacity, they we could indeed fully transition to renewable energy once and for all!

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#135
post #38

Can someone explain their revenue to me? They claim 1m in revenue from their existing product which is: "1.75 megawatts (MW) of peak power output; a 2.2 MW charge rating; and 10+ megawatt-hours (MWh) of storage capacity" How does that equal 1m in revenue? You have to pay to charge your air-battery during low-cost hours and then discharge it during high cost hours to make the difference in revenue. The issue is, you c…

I agree it does seem like a stretch.

IF 10MWh is their daily cycle, they are selling 3,650,000 kWh/year. To hit $1M per year, they would need to be selling ~27c/KWh above their buying price.

I get that you can have a big spread if you are being paid to take power, and paid again to sell it.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#136

In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company

The Amish use compressed air: http://www.amishfamilyvalues.com/amish/amish-electricity/

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#137
post #7

Interesting. There's a good video describing the operation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWjwwKSR78 After watching it, I now understand that they aren't flooding the entire borehole, but rather are building a smaller high-pressure chamber at the bottom. The chamber is connected to pipes to a surface reservoir. When air is pumped into the chamber, it displaces water up toward the surface. When generating, the…

Is the voice in that video AI generated?

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#138

In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company

There also used to be "central turbines" whereby there was a central spinning rod that one could attach belts to in order to spin a thing to get work out of it... called line and shaft https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qt5tltnvF8

There's a cool working example of this at Kelham Island Museum in Sheffield, England.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#139
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really cool, sort of like how an ICE drives ancillaries

Cool indeed, but pretty dangerous and difficult to reconfigure. Electric wires and motors are so much smaller, and easier to protect, and more interoperable, so you can see why they won out.

That was one of the reasons behind having factory whistles: all workers take their places, the whistle, then the whole thing is started. While it's running people are not supposed to move around.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#140
This made me wonder what happened with LightSail energy, and found this takedown: https://www.greentechmedia.com/squared/letter-from-sand-hill...

Compressed air still seems like a promising idea to help solve the scale of energy storage we need, so I’m happy to see more companies taking a crack at it.

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