Earlier quoted context omitted.
I thought the whole schtick of the Amish was that they don't allow themselves to become reliant on technology, electricity just being an example. I doubt that Amish guy knows how to rebuild that engine should it fail.
The Amish only allow technology that they think will improve their lives. Many have cell phones, but don't use Facebook for example. I'd also bet he could repair the engine if he needed to.
Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
161–170 of 325 posts
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
This isn't correct. Deep mines are notoriously hot, because you're digging towards magma. Google says temps increase by 3° C for every 100m.
Naive question but couldn't our forerunners who otherwise succumbed to cold in harsher climates have exploited this fact to dig subterranean villages and towns? What's the element I'm missing as to why they didn't?
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#163Amish Hackers
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#164I knew Danielle Fong from Lightsail Energy, folded in 2016, and at that time compressed air seemed like a great solution especially for LatAm that needed robust low cost batteries for critical infrastructure (like hospitals) on an unreliable power grid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielle_Fong Would be great to see this technology reach maturity!
That wikipedia page answers everything you need to know about compressed air energy storage. In 2018, the tech couldn't compete against lithium ion, and the price of lithium ion continues to fall 10-20% per year. Compressed air and that concrete-block-stacking nonsense that keeps getting press are just magnets for uneducated investors.
> Compared to traditional batteries, CAES systems can store energy for longer periods of time and have less upkeep.
Sometimes the cost per MW/hr or equivalent is not the only metric worth thinking about.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#165Grid storage is going to be big business in the future, on the order of size of storage for electrical vehicles. (And these will certainly not be mutually exclusive markets! Vehicle to grid tech will become widespread, as is already seen in the new F150 Lightning truck). Lithium ion will dominate for the foreseeable future, as the industry has scaled to massive sizes and already, and has the advantage of being curren…
Lithium Ion is not sustainable for the long term - we have neither the materials nor the manufacturing to not only keep up what would be required for full scale car and grid uses, but don't forget Lithium Ion batteries have a finite lifespan and need to be replaced. The more you put into service, the more you have to manufacture beyond just the batteries needed for new requirements.
Manufacturing capacity is expected to increase 10x every five years, with roughly 20-30TWh/year production in 2031. I can't think of any fundamental constraints there, could you specify why that can't increase?
Lithium recycling is being planned by nearly all manufacturers and many countries will mandate it. If lithium supplies are short, recycling will be highly profitable. If lithium is super abundant, recycling may be more expensive than recycling, and a program like what we currently use for lead acid batteries might be needed for a circular economy. But the fundamental point is that end of life for the battery does not mean that the lithium is gone, it's not a fuel.
How did you collect this odd set of concerns? Did you think of them or did you find them in the media somewhere?
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#166In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#167How does the economics of this look like, and how do they intended to get back the investment. If its to buy low when wind/solar production is high and sell when production is low, what will the cost per watt be? If its subsidies, how much will this cost the government? The article seem to mostly describe this as a technology project to test the technology at scale, but they do also mention profits. Is the basic prem…
Current solar and wind renewables are NOT predictable nor reliable for sustained power generation. With Coal, Natural Gas, Nuclear and Hydro you can generate power on demand, no matter what the environment is doing. Well, Hydro in the west is getting dicey with the drought - but even that is far more stable than wind/sun which can vary wildly week to week, day to day or even hour to hour.
That's why technology like this is so exciting. If you can look at the average production of a renewable over a month, then within a year the peak month, then look at the worst months, then have enough storage to cover a percentage of a peak month based off the hedge of the worst month then you are getting to a point where a solar farm isn't just an opportunistic source of power based on how much the sun is shining, but a reliable energy source that can be counted on whether the sun is shining or not.
Same for wind farms.
Energy storage is crucial if we seriously want to transition to renewables and hence the investment from Goldman Sachs.
If this company is even remotely successful in actually delivering then $250M is a pittance to what they will receive back in the long term.
There are also a lot of unused/abandoned underground structures - from various wells that are now dry of the resource they were originally drilled for to mines that are no longer productive. The problem has been sealing them from seepage so you don't loose your stored air - this article was light on details but that seems to be this companies claim to fame. They seem to have found economical ways to deal with those issues - enough to convince the boffins at Goldman Sachs they are worthy of investment. I guarantee you Goldman is not just tossing out money willy-nilley without performing some significant due diligence!
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
To the best of my knowledge that thinking is spot on. A possible component that might be missing (in the thinking and/or in the proposed implementation): the stored heat could also be utilised separately if needed, so if you have an intermittent heat consumer and an intermittent electricity consumer you could consume the heat first, then leave the remaining compression energy (what you could recover without reheating…
After seeing videos of lava pouring into the ocean I have fantasized about a power generation system: Artificial geo-thermal power gen: Dig a deep enough hole but near the ocean, and let ocean water pour into the hole that gets close enough to magma such that the magma creates a steam blast back out a tube with a bunch of turbines to spin.
CEO Nwabudike Morgan likes this (reference to Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri in case you were wondering)
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#169In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
These kinds of utility-run storage facilities usually buy and sell on the wholesale spot market, which swings much more than retail prices do. Somewhat similar economics to gas "peaker" plants, which only fire up when supply is tight and prices spike, making it economical to run a higher-cost generator. The Hydrostor plant is in Ontario. Here's an archive of hourly spot-market electricity prices there (in dollars per…
I would need to see the math, because nothing adds up to even 1/10th of their claimed revenue. Best case, they bought 10mwh on jan 5th and sold it at the perfect time on jan 11th. This would give them 2k in revenue in 6 days. Wheres the rest? And what about if you cant nostradamus predict the best times to buy and sell?
https://smartgrid.ieee.org/bulletins/january-2016/energy-sto....
Sometimes utilities only need a few minutes of power to cover small gaps while ramping up/down powerplants, or if a cloud passes over a solar generation facility. Since these volumes are very small but critical, the effective price per MWH is extremely high.
When Tesla did their grid scale battery installation in Australia, this is how they made their money. Not via energy arbitrage, but with selling frequency response services. I have no idea if this is the same thing, but there are other ways to make money with energy storage as well.