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Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
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Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
This isn't correct. Deep mines are notoriously hot, because you're digging towards magma. Google says temps increase by 3° C for every 100m.
Naive question but couldn't our forerunners who otherwise succumbed to cold in harsher climates have exploited this fact to dig subterranean villages and towns? What's the element I'm missing as to why they didn't?
Difficulty of digging with the tools they had, inability to stabilize the structure to prevent cave-ins, lack of pumps to remove accumulating water, insufficient ventilation and filtration technology/unable to deal with poison gases, inability to light their environment without contributing to the poor air quality, difficulty accessing resources like food and clean water, lack of desire to live in a damp, dusty hole.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#103This brings to mind the other post about the Amish that's on today's front page. I believe the Amish sometimes use compressed air as an alternative form of power.
I read an article in a woodworking magazine about how one Amish woodworking shop was built to avoid using electricity. The whole shop ran off a stationary diesel engine driving a shaft in a floor trench and belt drove the larger stationary machinery like band saws, table saws, planers, drill presses, joiners and so on. But what about hand tools? A large belt driven air compressor off the diesel engine handled a myria…
I thought the whole schtick of the Amish was that they don't allow themselves to become reliant on technology, electricity just being an example. I doubt that Amish guy knows how to rebuild that engine should it fail.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#104I knew Danielle Fong from Lightsail Energy, folded in 2016, and at that time compressed air seemed like a great solution especially for LatAm that needed robust low cost batteries for critical infrastructure (like hospitals) on an unreliable power grid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielle_Fong Would be great to see this technology reach maturity!
That wikipedia page answers everything you need to know about compressed air energy storage.
In 2018, the tech couldn't compete against lithium ion, and the price of lithium ion continues to fall 10-20% per year.
Compressed air and that concrete-block-stacking nonsense that keeps getting press are just magnets for uneducated investors.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#105In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back.
Zeppelins next!
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
This isn't correct. Deep mines are notoriously hot, because you're digging towards magma. Google says temps increase by 3° C for every 100m.
Naive question but couldn't our forerunners who otherwise succumbed to cold in harsher climates have exploited this fact to dig subterranean villages and towns? What's the element I'm missing as to why they didn't?
Digging 100m down is difficult and dangerous
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
They are likely operating on the wholesale markets, which are market priced. For the western grid there is a significantly wider price range of prices. On peak days in the summer, prices can go up above $1,000/mwh in the late afternoon for several days. During the late fall/early spring, there are negative prices in the late morning (like $20-$50/mwh) due to extremely high solar production and low demand, so utilitie…
A lot of people look at these and think "that doesn't seem like it'd be remotely worth it for something that size" but it's really hard to explain just how badly California has painted itself into a corner on distant generation, huge variance between excess renewable capacity and peak load, and transmission congestion. The numbers don't make sense to people. Pretty much all the solar plants we're putting in now have…
> it's really hard to explain just how badly California has painted itself into a corner on distant generation
source needed if you're making such a bold statement
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#108In the 80s my grandfather used to do this for the former Soviet Union. Long story short they were pressuring a salt mine at night for energy storage and somebody failed to report a water leak during the day. They tried to depressurize the mine but it ended up blowing up anyway killing a couple people in The process. This shit can be really dangerous if done incorrectly.
How did the situation go from a water leak to an explosion?
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
I read an article in a woodworking magazine about how one Amish woodworking shop was built to avoid using electricity. The whole shop ran off a stationary diesel engine driving a shaft in a floor trench and belt drove the larger stationary machinery like band saws, table saws, planers, drill presses, joiners and so on. But what about hand tools? A large belt driven air compressor off the diesel engine handled a myria…
My father once told me that a lot of machine shops used to be set up that way, except that the powered shaft ran along the ceiling instead of in a floor trench. "Just throw a belt up over the shaft" and attach it to the machine you want to use, was how he described it. I don't know if it's still there, but there used to be a fancy restaurant in the Eastlake part of Seattle that had started out that way, and still had…
Yes, the industrial revolution was powered this way. Water wheels and steam engines as central power plants, with power distributed mechanically.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
On that note do you have a good explanation for why the air needs to be reheated? I didn't quite understand that from the video.
Warm air takes up more space. If you cool it before pumping it into the ground you will not waste time/energy. If you pump warm air down it will lose heat into the ground and shrink and you would lose capacity - pumping that last x% the tanks will be fuller until they cool down. You warm up the air on the way out to expand it and you get more air to spin the turbine. More bang for your buck. I believe is the thinking…
> Warm air takes up more space. If you cool it before pumping it into the ground you will not waste time/energy.
The real masterstroke here might then be to put this system in an area with large diurnal temp changes like the desert, then charge this system with cool night air, and then reheat it and generate electricity during the day with warm daytime air. Heat pumps could be used to nudge the temp on either end into it's optimal range.
It then becomes a solar thermal hybrid compressed air energy storage.
This could pair well with renewables that are more available at night like onshore wind.