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The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

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Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#171

Post by camgunz »

bluGill wrote: post #159
zeepzeep wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just for spying on your cat. Can we stop downplaying privacy issues please?

Sure, can privacy advocates stop down playing what we lose because we value privacy though? There needs to be a balance, location information will be very useful for a lot of things, but only if we have it fully implemented. I want things to sense when I fall and call for help for me. (If I was at a big risk I'd have a button, but for the average young person the risk is non-zero but very small). I want my home autom…

I think we're all being a little maximalist here? I think it's fair to say this article's focus is on the tech, so it doesn't discuss the cool stuff (incredible VR experience, sci-fi like gesture apps) or the bad stuff (Google knows when you scratch your ass). I think it's reasonable to read an article that doesn't mention any usage restrictions, look at the track record of tech, and worry about the privacy implications.

The Verge includes a whole section on stuff you agree to when purchasing a new laptop when reviewing them. Maybe it's a good idea for us to start insisting on some level of privacy regulation on new tech. This is purely regulatory right, nothing preventing things like VR--just preventing FB from knowing everything you're doing while using their VR headset, and selling that information to others. Maybe that creates an economic constraint, but this seems like a choice consumers can make. For example Amazon sells 2 versions of every Kindle: ad supported and not.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#172

Post by tomfanning »

causi wrote: post #111
cassepipe wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I have been dreaming about LiFi for some time, if what you're saying it's true, that's... disappointing. Do you have any sources about the current state of (real-world) LiFi ?

Literally their website.

Who specifically is "their"?

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#173

Post by lexicality »

bluGill wrote: post #162
GlenTheMachine wrote: post #9

Is it just me, or does this seems like a really, really bad idea? The privacy implications here seem… disturbing.

It isn't just you, but it should be. The privacy implications are potentially disturbing and need to be address (I have no idea how). However there are also a lot of real uses for this that will make your life better. Some of those are things we haven't thought of yet.

What sort of real uses?

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#174

Post by ethbr0 »

camgunz wrote: post #171
bluGill wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, can privacy advocates stop down playing what we lose because we value privacy though? There needs to be a balance, location information will be very useful for a lot of things, but only if we have it fully implemented. I want things to sense when I fall and call for help for me. (If I was at a big risk I'd have a button, but for the average young person the risk is non-zero but very small). I want my home autom…

I think we're all being a little maximalist here? I think it's fair to say this article's focus is on the tech, so it doesn't discuss the cool stuff (incredible VR experience, sci-fi like gesture apps) or the bad stuff (Google knows when you scratch your ass). I think it's reasonable to read an article that doesn't mention any usage restrictions, look at the track record of tech, and worry about the privacy implicati…

It's starting to feel like the #1 go-forward privacy law needs to be a mandatory opt-in choice requirement, with a viable refuse option.

It can be asked once at the device level, but regulated information needs to be specified at the highest level (e.g. "location information about an individual"), and then the concrete technical implementation left unspecified.

"Does it, or does it not?" is more important than "How?" Because legislation specifying "How?" will always lag technology by decades.

(But then again, this probably should have been done in the mid-90s, once it was apparent which way cookies were going)

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#175

Post by transpute »

jimmySixDOF wrote: post #22

In a related note, this week Google ATAP and Ford announced Ripple, a open standard for consumer radio sensing based on Project Soli (60 Ghz) [1] https://github.com/CTA-Ripple/Ripple-v.0 [2] https://9to5google.com/2022/01/06/google-soli-radar-ripple/

That's based on UWB (Ultra Wideband), which is also present in some iPhones.

https://staceyoniot.com/two-companies-show-where-our-uwb-fut...

> Outside of fine-grained location tracking, UWB is also used for radar sensing. Google is using UWB for its Soli radar, which is embedded in the most recent Nest Hub display to track respiration during sleep ... Novelda, argues that UWB sensing is more effective than the traditional motion sensors that hotels have historically deployed because they can sense a person even when they are still by “seeing” micromovements made by the person’s breathing. Lenovo embedded the Novelda chip into its laptops as a way to keep the screen on only when a person is in front of it, which helps save on battery power.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#176

Post by tagoregrtst »

jagger27 wrote: post #40

I'm surprised that there's not a single comment here about 802.11ay which is also 60GHz. Each channel on that standard can do something like 40Gbps, which is nuts. From Wikipedia[0]: > The link-rate per stream is 44 Gbit/s, with four streams this goes up to 176 Gbit/s. Yes, it can't penetrate walls, but is huge for point to point communication. Think VR headset bandwidth, file transfers between devices, wireless back…

I cant see through walls with a lightbulb. I can with wifi.

This standard makes my wifi router into an internet connected, closed source blob, light bulb and camera that is impossible to obscure (without killing my internet connection).

Sure, I can wire my whole house for ethernet. And, while I’m behind the drywall, I might as well rip off all the drywall put a layer of Al.

Here’s a business idea - drywall with aluminum fibers embedded in. For those of us who don't want our sexy times recorded by our router.

EDIT: made wifi’s ability to see through walls explicit per _jal’s comment.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#177

Post by transpute »

tagoregrtst wrote: post #176
jagger27 wrote: post #40

I'm surprised that there's not a single comment here about 802.11ay which is also 60GHz. Each channel on that standard can do something like 40Gbps, which is nuts. From Wikipedia[0]: > The link-rate per stream is 44 Gbit/s, with four streams this goes up to 176 Gbit/s. Yes, it can't penetrate walls, but is huge for point to point communication. Think VR headset bandwidth, file transfers between devices, wireless back…

I cant see through walls with a lightbulb. I can with wifi. This standard makes my wifi router into an internet connected, closed source blob, light bulb and camera that is impossible to obscure (without killing my internet connection). Sure, I can wire my whole house for ethernet. And, while I’m behind the drywall, I might as well rip off all the drywall put a layer of Al. Here’s a business idea - drywall with alumi…

> drywall with aluminum fibers embedded

QuietRock has drywall that combines soundproofing with RF shielding (steel plate), but it's expensive and targeted at military use cases, https://www.quietrock.com/sites/default/files/QuietRock_530R.... Aluminum radiant barrier can be layered with standard drywall.

There is conductive carbon paint for RF shielding, e.g. http://www.emfrf.com/shielding-of-electric-fields-in-a-resid... & https://www.zokazola.com/emf_reduction.html

Other materials: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29902926

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#178

Post by float4 »

dafoex wrote: post #112
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when first contactless payment options appeared, many people started buying anti-RFID wallets and bags. I'm not sure if they're still a thing, but the people who need "radio-privacy" will definitely find a way.

I have a few wallets with alleged RFID blocking. For those its mainly to stop arse grabbing attacks where card info (or security badge info) could be cloned with a little badge reader held in someone's palm.

Smart cards store secret keys and modifiable internal state on-device. Older smart cards, with for example a MIFARE chip from around the year 2000, can be cloned relatively easily because they have many vulnerabilities, but newer cards with for example an NXP SmartMX2 P60 are, to date, impossible to clone unless you have access to the card for a large amount of time.

You'd also be surprised how powerful smart cards are these days. the aforementioned NXP chip has 586 KB ROM, 144 KB EEPROM and 11 KB RAM, crypto coprocessors for RSA/ECC/DES/AES, and a 32-bit CPU.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#179

Post by bb611 »

bluGill wrote: post #163
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big one is "heartbeat detection". "Tactical suggests there are 14 heartbeats in the room" "During the interview the candidates heart rate increased during questions on their reasons for leaving the last position" ohhh. There is sooo much here :-)

> During the interview the candidates heart rate increased during questions on their reasons for leaving the last position That discussion is illegal under current laws. (you cannot use a lie detector in interviews) Well at least in the US, check your local laws.

Authorities aren't restricted from using a lie detector in the US, just from using the results in court. They're frequently used to pressure suspects in criminal cases during questioning, knowing the results are inadmissable.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#180

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

bluGill wrote: post #159
zeepzeep wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just for spying on your cat. Can we stop downplaying privacy issues please?

Sure, can privacy advocates stop down playing what we lose because we value privacy though? There needs to be a balance, location information will be very useful for a lot of things, but only if we have it fully implemented. I want things to sense when I fall and call for help for me. (If I was at a big risk I'd have a button, but for the average young person the risk is non-zero but very small). I want my home autom…

No, because your "balance" will land in the middle, which is to say that it will outright destroy a great deal of privacy.
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