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The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

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161–170 of 235 posts

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#161
post #2

I don't know. Maybe I'm just getting old. It seems this, like a lot of new tech these days, will end up offering little benefit while providing new malicious capabilities.

It's very scary shit. We could soon have no privacy at all in our own homes because of other people's WiFi networks. If the output is strong enough, all you have to do is connect to/crack someone's WiFi and use it to get a layout of all their neighbor's places.

> all you have to do is connect to/crack someone's WiFi and use it to get a layout of all their neighbor's places.

It's much worse: neither crack nor connection is required. The technology is entirely passive, it only uses reflections from Wi-Fi radios, same as radar. No connection to the router is required, hence the acronym DFWS (Device-Free Wireless Sensing).

To be clear, this can be done today with $20 ESP32 WiFi devices + custom firmware, i.e. any motivated attacker can already see through the walls of homes and businesses. The Wi-Fi 7 Sensing draft standard is proposing to make this available to everyone.

Perhaps we need a celebrity to help demo SENS transparency of their home walls, to help consumers and regulators understand the implications. That could motivate research investment in privacy controls.

More details: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29901979

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#162

Is it just me, or does this seems like a really, really bad idea? The privacy implications here seem… disturbing.

It isn't just you, but it should be. The privacy implications are potentially disturbing and need to be address (I have no idea how). However there are also a lot of real uses for this that will make your life better. Some of those are things we haven't thought of yet.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents... Security Environment Control Wake on approach, walk away lock Conference room occupancy Gesture control Elderly monitoring Baby monitoring Smart housekeeping Advertisement signage efficiency Motion detection Proximity detection People counting Human activity recognition Vital signs (e.g. heartrate) detection

The big one is "heartbeat detection". "Tactical suggests there are 14 heartbeats in the room" "During the interview the candidates heart rate increased during questions on their reasons for leaving the last position" ohhh. There is sooo much here :-)

> During the interview the candidates heart rate increased during questions on their reasons for leaving the last position

That discussion is illegal under current laws. (you cannot use a lie detector in interviews) Well at least in the US, check your local laws.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#165
post #2

I don't know. Maybe I'm just getting old. It seems this, like a lot of new tech these days, will end up offering little benefit while providing new malicious capabilities.

There is a difference between consumer benefits and maybe industrial benefits. Maybe it might make communication between sorting bots more accurate and quicker.

Doubtful. Beam forming would be more beneficial.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#166
post #149
post #82

This is not a future I'd like to see. What bothers me even more, is that if the neighbors above me decide to join an "Apple Security Sensing Program" by toggling it on, it may as well be sensing and logging my activity. Other than that, I do have a lot of ESP32s at my place sensing for activity via IR as well as by creating an FFT-"audio" log. No sound just FFT aggregated over one second, but all these devices store…

> What bothers me even more, is that if the neighbors above me decide to join an "Apple Security Sensing Program" by toggling it on, it may as well be sensing and logging my activity. 60 Ghz is heavily blocked by walls, glass and doors, even more than 5Ghz, so that's very unlikely scenario.

> that's very unlikely scenario.

Wi-Fi sensing works with 2.4 Ghz and higher.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#167
post #147

Wouldn't this have to be constantly transmitting to work? I can't imagine the amount of interference this would create. The lower frequencies are already congested enough...

your access point is transmitting beacons on a regular basis anyway.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#168
post #141
post #2

I don't know. Maybe I'm just getting old. It seems this, like a lot of new tech these days, will end up offering little benefit while providing new malicious capabilities.

One thing I see 802.1bf ( Sensing ), along with 802.11be ( WiFi 7 ) could be used together in setting up consumer mesh WiFi Network. Home Wireless Networking is still pretty much an unsolved problem for average consumers. Edit: Turns out there are other comments below mentioning this.

"Home Wireless Networking is still pretty much an unsolved problem for average consumers."

What do you mean? Most consumers have a wireless router, and that works for their needs.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#169
post #147

Wouldn't this have to be constantly transmitting to work? I can't imagine the amount of interference this would create. The lower frequencies are already congested enough...

It uses reflections from existing transmissions.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very scary shit. We could soon have no privacy at all in our own homes because of other people's WiFi networks. If the output is strong enough, all you have to do is connect to/crack someone's WiFi and use it to get a layout of all their neighbor's places.

This is a great example of why people don’t have privacy. Ethernet cables exist, and wholly forgo these problems. But, they are less convenient. Consumers complain a lot about privacy, but do little to really demand it. Of course manufacturers deserve much of the blame here for actually implementing these things, but it doesn’t seem as if consumers are trying to steer them in the right direction at all.

Yep. I have ethernet cables throughout the house and use it for most stuff. I still have a wireless router for the phones though.
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