Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths • Hacker News Board

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#181

Post by frosted-flakes » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 7:03 PM UTC

estebank wrote: post #145

watwut wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30km/h is very low speed. Majority or roads are faster.

30km/h is not an uncommon speed in European urban areas. For example, in France within towns 50km/h is the default speed limit for main arteries, but it is 30km/h for areas where pedestrians are expected. Most of Paris has made the switch, so has Brussels. I would go as far as saying they are a majority of streets , while yes, roads are always faster, but that would be playing semantic games.

All streets are roads, no? While not all roads are streets.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#182

Post by hutzlibu » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

dimitrios1 wrote: post #175

hutzlibu wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They ignore stop signs and traffic lights, trying to pass as a pedestrian whenever it is convenient, and have been responsible for many pedestrian related injuries" No doubt, there are ruthless cyclists as well. Still, are you aware of the difference in numbers and quality of "car driver killed cyclist" vs. "cyclist hurt pedestrian"?

Yes. I am aware. This doesn't change the argument, and more importantly, nor does it change the perception of the situation. Cyclists situation in America will not improve so long as the perception of them are they are smug assholes. Everyone already knows there are smug asshole drivers. But we already have roads for cars everywhere. If you want to try and get more tax dollars for segregated bike lanes, the perceptio…

"Everyone already knows there are smug asshole drivers. But we already have roads for cars everywhere. If you want to try and get more tax dollars for segregated bike lanes, the perception and the argument has to change."

So you say, it is ok, that there are some asshole drivers but roads still needs to be build and maintained, but not OK, that there are some asshole cyclists and therefore no cyclist deserves more bikelanes? (Or do you want me to dig up numbers on how much is spend yearly on roads vs bikelanes?)

But for real? Arguments for support of cycling by allowing them to do so safe?

How about cycling is way more energy efficient. Does not poison the surrounding with toxic fumes and noise. Increases the health - studies showed it does so even despite the toxic fumes of their fellow car drivers who often overlook and directly kill or criple them and now want more arguments of why the tax dollar is not only for them?

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#183

Post by mdavis6890 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 7:51 PM UTC

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #67

999900000999 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly anti-car myself, But factor in cycling is not practical transportation for most people. It targets a certain demographic, people who have the physical ability to actually cycle. What about those who cannot, what about disabled people? Even if you are fit, anything more that 10 miles a day is difficult. I'm a massive fan of public transit, however, as an American this means I can only live in a handful of c…

> cycling is not practical transportation for most people. It targets a certain demographic, people who have the physical ability to actually cycle. That's… most people. Like I get it, we have an obesity epidemic, but fat people can ride bicycles. It's not unusual. And a lot of them start shedding pounds fast once you get them out of the automated wheeled easy-chairs we call "cars."

It's not necessarily about physical disabilities. Think about 1 parent with 2 young children and 3 bags of groceries. And that roughly fits a LOT of folks. Maybe if both your house and the grocery store (or other destination) are within 1-2km of a mass-transit stop you can use that - otherwise it's pretty much personal car/bus. And if that's the case for one particular trip, you still need to have this option for the others.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#184

Post by zip1234 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 8:01 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #155

u801e wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I ride in my normal road position, about 75 cm from the kerb. The rationale behind riding closer to the edge of the roadway is that drivers of motor vehicles have more room to overtake. But would a motor vehicle be able to fit between you and another motor vehicle in an adjacent lane when overtaking while leaving sufficient distance between their vehicle and the cyclist? I would posit that's not possible, meaning t…

"I would posit that's not possible, meaning that there is no benefit derived from riding closer to the edge of the road. " When you overtake a cyclist driving in the middle of the road, you have a longer time on the other side of the road while overtaking, than if the cyclist drives on the right. So that can mean, a driver will sometimes do a more dangerous overtaking and then in fact, endanger you, when he quickly h…

A more dangerous overtaking than someone trying to 'squeeze' through without even going into other lane?

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#185

Post by zip1234 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 8:03 PM UTC

greeneggs wrote: post #149

mathieuh wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the opposite opinion of painted-line bike paths: I'd rather they not be there at all. If they are there I feel forced to use them by drivers punishment passing me, despite the fact that the so-called bike lanes are full of glass, potholes and cars. If they aren't there I feel like I get treated with more patience when I ride in my normal road position, about 75 cm from the kerb.

Physically separated bike lanes are even worse. You can't get out of them easily if you come across a lot of debris. And they are harder to street clean, so debris accumulates more.

Why would they be any harder to clean? A city can just have one of their sweepers be a much smaller, cheaper, sweeper. Likewise for snow clearing. A much smaller and cheaper machine can often be used.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#186

Post by dfxm12 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 8:09 PM UTC

multiplegeorges wrote: post #68

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Holland they learned the hard way that you have to physically cordon off half of every road for bicycles. But you have to remember that just putting some paint on the pavement is a lot cheaper so that's what the government tries first. The reason why roads were taken back by Dutch cyclists and pedestrians is that they never stopped doing it. At some dark moment in the 1970s the number of children run over by cars…

> It was a battle won by blood. This is the current battle in Toronto, Canada. Last year, there were more people killed by cars than gun violence, but you wouldn't know it by the media coverage. The city, largely due to strong local advocacy, has started to respond with physically separated lanes, but we're talking double digit KM/year, if we're lucky, when we need 100s of KM to link the city together like this Milan…

but you wouldn't know it by the media coverage.

Yeah, it doesn't help that the media used to almost exclusively refers to car crashes as "accidents", falsely implying there was nothing that could have been done to avoid the situation, putting zero fault on any drivers involved. At least nowadays you see headlines about "car crashes", although you'll still find ledes like "person struck by dies of complications". No need for passive voice, a driver struck and killed that person.

..and on that note, they are doing much of the same with gun violence, too. "A 14-year-old girl has died after she was struck by a stray bullet shot by police while in a North Hollywood department store. [0]" Passive voice, putting the intent on the bullet, not directly saying the girl was shot to death. To read that quote, you'd think the bullet took it upon itself to strike the girl, who died of her own volition.

0 - https://people.com/crime/14-year-old-girl-killed-by-stray-bu...

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#187

Post by ryzvonusef » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 8:14 PM UTC

the real competition for bike paths will be for normal unpowered bikes and slow pedal-assist ebikes competing with fast throttle "ebikes" and electric scooters/mopeds.

The fast bikes are still not fast enough and safe enough to ride with cars, but too fast for regular bike paths, so what will give?

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#188

Post by u801e » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 8:31 PM UTC

alisonatwork wrote: post #170

u801e wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In areas with painted cycle lanes, the drivers understand that in this situation they are supposed to watch for cyclists, give way and then cross into the "right turn only" lane on the cyclists' right, instead of fuming and raging because a cyclist dared to follow the signage. While this works to some extent when a right turn only lane is present, this actually sets the cyclist up for a right hook when the right mo…

I think your calculation of car sizes is a bit wide. I think most cars in the US are around 6 feet wide. Even large minivans are only around 2m. Granted, the mirrors add width and some drivers add excessive dongles on the edge of that, but conscientious drivers of wide vehicles should already be accustomed to passing slow moving vehicles more carefully. In addition, in the places where there are proper dedicated cycl…

> I think your calculation of car sizes is a bit wide. I think most cars in the US are around 6 feet wide.

You're not including mirrors in the width of the vehicle. Typical exterior mirrors on passenger vehicles extend out about 6 inches from the body, so that adds a foot to the vehicle's width. My VW Golf Sportwagen is about 7 feet wide mirror to mirror. My Honda Odyssey is about 7.5 feet wide mirror to mirror. I've measured both vehicles by dropping a string from the edge of the mirror housing down to the ground, and marking it on both sides and measuring the distance between the marks. Take a look at the interactive graphic towards the bottom of the page by Cycling Savvy[1]

Commercial vehicles like tractor trailers and buses are 8.5 feet wide at the body. Their mirrors extend out further, meaning that they're close to 10.5 feet wide mirror to mirror.

[1] https://cyclingsavvy.org/lane-width-space/

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#189

Post by jimmytidey » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 8:36 PM UTC

tohmeiphun wrote: post #32

the_biot wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's equally frustrating how a certain class of people, i.e. rabid anti-car cyclists, only read publications within their bubble that are equally anti-car, while constantly throwing shade at any country that is not the paradise Netherlands. I encourage you to take that next step: only commenting on these type of stories within your bubble.

I agree with you. Having a car maximizes your opportunity, so by making it difficult and expensive to own a car and drive hurts the people who need the help the most.

It really depends on the context. Driving is often the only feasible way to get around in sparsely populated areas, or areas with extreme weather.

In densely populated temperate areas, cars are often no faster than other modes of transport (although they may be more comfortable), and they impose a very high cost on others, including: fatalities and injuries associated with traffic accidents, premature deaths and reduced quality of life due to air pollution and noise pollution. Parking and road lanes typically consume a great deal more space per passenger mile than buses, trains, trams, bike or walking.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by hurting 'people who need help the most', but in most urban situations owning a car for personal transport is not an option for those with the lowest income, and no realistic policy will make it affordable.

Again, I'm happy to have my views challenged on this.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#190

Post by u801e » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 8:36 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #155

u801e wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I ride in my normal road position, about 75 cm from the kerb. The rationale behind riding closer to the edge of the roadway is that drivers of motor vehicles have more room to overtake. But would a motor vehicle be able to fit between you and another motor vehicle in an adjacent lane when overtaking while leaving sufficient distance between their vehicle and the cyclist? I would posit that's not possible, meaning t…

"I would posit that's not possible, meaning that there is no benefit derived from riding closer to the edge of the road. " When you overtake a cyclist driving in the middle of the road, you have a longer time on the other side of the road while overtaking, than if the cyclist drives on the right. So that can mean, a driver will sometimes do a more dangerous overtaking and then in fact, endanger you, when he quickly h…

> When you overtake a cyclist driving in the middle of the road, you have a longer time on the other side of the road while overtaking, than if the cyclist drives on the right.

The amount of time needed to move completely to the opposite side of the road as opposed to straddling the center line time 2 is not significant. The amount of time to actually overtake the cyclist easily exceeds that by a factor of 10 or more. In other words, there really isn't any signficant difference in terms of the time required to complete an overtake.