Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths • Hacker News Board

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#151

Post by nybble41 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

yohannparis wrote: post #102

999900000999 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly anti-car myself, But factor in cycling is not practical transportation for most people. It targets a certain demographic, people who have the physical ability to actually cycle. What about those who cannot, what about disabled people? Even if you are fit, anything more that 10 miles a day is difficult. I'm a massive fan of public transit, however, as an American this means I can only live in a handful of c…

This is such a weird argument. Many people can't drive (minors, elderly, handicapped, health issues, etc.), and we still shade a ton of money on car infrastructure. This is not a zero-sum game; more cyclist means fewer cars, which means better services/life for people who need to drive. And we are talking about $280 Million; that's a piss in a bucket for a city like Milan.

> Many people can't drive (minors, elderly, handicapped, health issues, etc.), and we still shade a ton of money on car infrastructure.

Most of those who can't drive also couldn't get very far on a bike on their own. They can, however, ride in a car (or bus) driven by someone else, making use of that same infrastructure. Bikes are not typically designed to carry passengers.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#152

Post by u801e » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

alisonatwork wrote: post #88

mathieuh wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the opposite opinion of painted-line bike paths: I'd rather they not be there at all. If they are there I feel forced to use them by drivers punishment passing me, despite the fact that the so-called bike lanes are full of glass, potholes and cars. If they aren't there I feel like I get treated with more patience when I ride in my normal road position, about 75 cm from the kerb.

I both agree and don't agree, having recently cycled across the US and experienced areas with no cycle paths, painted cycle paths and separated cycle paths. Obviously separated paths are the safest, although unfortunately in the US they often aren't maintained as well as the road surface, so for long trips it's usually more comfortable to cycle on the road anyway. But when it comes to painted lines, the situation is…

> In areas with painted cycle lanes, the drivers understand that in this situation they are supposed to watch for cyclists, give way and then cross into the "right turn only" lane on the cyclists' right, instead of fuming and raging because a cyclist dared to follow the signage.

While this works to some extent when a right turn only lane is present, this actually sets the cyclist up for a right hook when the right most travel lane can be used to proceed straight through the intersection or turn right. In that case, the bike lane is still painted to the right and leads to the situation where a motorist making a right turn is to the left of cyclist traffic going straight through the intersection.

> [I]n the US I think [that painted lines are] still useful as a way to teach drivers how to handle having cyclists on the road.

The problem in the US is that they paint lines in such a way that there's insufficient lateral space between the cyclist and motor vehicles. Most US states have passed laws requiring motorists to leave at least 3 feet between their vehicle and a cyclist.

In the case where a general purpose lane is 10 feet wide and the adjacent bike lane is 4 feet wide, you end up with a siutation where it's not possible to leave 3 feet of distance between the motor vehicle an and the cyclist. A typical larger vehicle is about 7.5 feet wide from mirror to mirror. Centered in a 10 foot wide lane, they have 1.25 feet on each side.

A cyclist is about 2.5 feet wide. 2.5 feet centered in a 4 foot wide bike lane leaves 0.75 feet on each side.

0.75 feet and 1.25 feet add up to 2 feet, which means that the distance with both the motorist and cyclist centered in the lane they're in is not sufficient. This doesn't account for moving side to side within the lane for either the motorist or cyclist.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#153

Post by pipodeclown » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:48 PM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #125

vishnugupta wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those are picture of a Cambridge roundabout, I realised it minutes after posting it when I noticed the driving was on the left (as opposed to right in NL) :-). The architecture is very close to those in the NL though which fooled my lazy eyes. Pedestrian islands, enabling free movement of cyclists with clear markings etc.,

How does right of way with this wide separation work though? In my experience (not Dutch) it always goes like this when a car and a cyclist approach a point where their paths cross and the cyclist has right of way: cyclist slows down to be ready for an emergency stop knowing full well that right of way won't be of any help when bones are crushed, driver takes it as an invitation to "slip" through. The usual cooperati…

Basically, the bike always has right of way and cyclist act like it as well, cyclist don't slow down and assume the any cars will stop, on the other hand, car drivers are drilled to always be on the look out for cyclists and give them all the space required, you get drilled on this and don't get a license untill you fully understand how to keep cyclists safe, that in practise means you need about 40 hours of driving lessons before you have any change of getting a driver's license. On the liabity side of things, the law basically assumes the driver of the car (more generally a motorised vehicle) is always at fault. Aside from some extremely reckless behaviour bordering on intentially throwing yourself in front of a car, any damages to your own vehicle as well as the cyclist you hit, is coming out of the motorists insurance.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#154

Post by ghusbands » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:48 PM UTC

999900000999 wrote: post #134

owenwil wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say it's raining, this makes riding a bike much more dangerous. Wait what, why? Because I'm going to get a bit wet? The rain is no more a threat to a cyclist's safety than it is to a car on a wet day. You just might need to wear a rain jacket, too. The Dutch certainly don't give a shit about rain, snow or shine, as the saying goes "there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothes."

You seriously think inexperienced cyclist should ride in bad weather? If you have a city of Lance Armstrongs , sure everyone could bike commute. That's not practical though. I'd argue for building more bike infrastructure just since cycling is fun. I'm planing on working remote forever anyway, so I think we'd agree on alot. But I recognize my privilege here, if you need to commute to an office biking won't work over…

Rain does not make in-city cycling significantly more dangerous, and is definitely fine for inexperienced cyclists. But if people cycle regularly, they aren't inexperienced, anyway.

In areas with frequent rain, people are practiced in carrying waterproof overclothes and such. Sub-zero temperatures, snow and ice can be a much bigger problem, of course, but good maintenance resolves a lot of that, too, as it does for cars.

As noted by drakonka, you continue to argue the infeasibility of something that works well for many cities/countries, citing things that those with experience know aren't a big problem. Sure, you can't just suddenly start cycling when your life/city is built around driving tens of miles, but a city/country can work towards biking in a way that has worked well around the world.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#155

Post by hutzlibu » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:50 PM UTC

u801e wrote: post #147

mathieuh wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the opposite opinion of painted-line bike paths: I'd rather they not be there at all. If they are there I feel forced to use them by drivers punishment passing me, despite the fact that the so-called bike lanes are full of glass, potholes and cars. If they aren't there I feel like I get treated with more patience when I ride in my normal road position, about 75 cm from the kerb.

> I ride in my normal road position, about 75 cm from the kerb. The rationale behind riding closer to the edge of the roadway is that drivers of motor vehicles have more room to overtake. But would a motor vehicle be able to fit between you and another motor vehicle in an adjacent lane when overtaking while leaving sufficient distance between their vehicle and the cyclist? I would posit that's not possible, meaning t…

"I would posit that's not possible, meaning that there is no benefit derived from riding closer to the edge of the road. "

When you overtake a cyclist driving in the middle of the road, you have a longer time on the other side of the road while overtaking, than if the cyclist drives on the right. So that can mean, a driver will sometimes do a more dangerous overtaking and then in fact, endanger you, when he quickly has to change lanes again to abort the overtaking.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#156

Post by praxulus » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:53 PM UTC

999900000999 wrote: post #134

owenwil wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say it's raining, this makes riding a bike much more dangerous. Wait what, why? Because I'm going to get a bit wet? The rain is no more a threat to a cyclist's safety than it is to a car on a wet day. You just might need to wear a rain jacket, too. The Dutch certainly don't give a shit about rain, snow or shine, as the saying goes "there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothes."

You seriously think inexperienced cyclist should ride in bad weather? If you have a city of Lance Armstrongs , sure everyone could bike commute. That's not practical though. I'd argue for building more bike infrastructure just since cycling is fun. I'm planing on working remote forever anyway, so I think we'd agree on alot. But I recognize my privilege here, if you need to commute to an office biking won't work over…

>You seriously think inexperienced cyclist should ride in bad weather?

I don't think inexperienced drivers should drive in the snow, but that doesn't mean we completely dismiss cars as a practical means of transportations in cities that get snow.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#157

Post by kfarr » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:55 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #89

lbriner wrote: post #54

There is an issue that needs consideration, if you compare to Japan which has enormous cycle usage. Although it is good for air pollution, you end up seeing whole seas of cycles everywhere which is not nice in terms of the aesthetic nvironment. Go to a normal suburban train station and there might be 500+ bikes all in a massive area. Better than a large car park but we don't get many large station car parks in the UK…

You should see China. Big sheds crammed with rusting bikes were a commonplace sight, though that was 10 years ago now. You could tell the Americans by their helmets and going 2X faster on fully inflated tires. Thing is, it doesn't matter. It is a bit of a rubbish problem, but there is no health hazard. If it gets people to ride bikes, that's far better than cars cramming every road everywhere.

Just curious why aren't the locals riding on fully inflated tires?

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#158

Post by jsinai » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:56 PM UTC

This is great news to see. I’ve spent a considerable amount of time in Milan. It is one of my favourite cities, although the pollution is noticeable. Something else I’m hoping this plan will improve is noise pollution. Thanks to the ubiquitous Milan is one of the noisiest cities I’ve been in.

One thing I’m curious to know is how the cobble stones will be handled. Some of those circular routes have cobbled sections. They remain for historical reasons, however the vibrations to a cyclist would be jarring.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#159

Post by f7f6ehdufu » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 6:01 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #150

dimitrios1 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In suburbia America, where bike lanes are abound and plenty of cyclists to boot, it is the cyclists that are entitled, selfish, arrogant, and ignore the traffic rules. They've recently resorted to riding 4-5 cyclists wide to take up the entire roadway. They ignore stop signs and traffic lights, trying to pass as a pedestrian whenever it is convenient, and have been responsible for many pedestrian related injuries. Fo…

"They ignore stop signs and traffic lights, trying to pass as a pedestrian whenever it is convenient, and have been responsible for many pedestrian related injuries" No doubt, there are ruthless cyclists as well. Still, are you aware of the difference in numbers and quality of "car driver killed cyclist" vs. "cyclist hurt pedestrian"?

No post body was provided.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#160

Post by Tiktaalik » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 6:03 PM UTC

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

> Many cities seem to delight in half-assing their own solutions.

You can expand this out to so many other areas, like building code too. It's enormously frustrating that everyone thinks they're a unique snowflake, they cannot learn from other jurisdictions and they must re-invent the wheel.

There are so many issues that so many cities are facing that are solved problems in other places.