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Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

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Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#111

Post by jdavis703 »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #43
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

In Holland they learned the hard way that you have to physically cordon off half of every road for bicycles. But you have to remember that just putting some paint on the pavement is a lot cheaper so that's what the government tries first. The reason why roads were taken back by Dutch cyclists and pedestrians is that they never stopped doing it. At some dark moment in the 1970s the number of children run over by cars…

In the US far more people have died of COVID-19 than we’ve ever seen of dead bike riders. The bar for the US to change policies because of a “dark moment” is going to be in the millions of deaths, which just isn’t going to happen when bike riding has such a small mode share here.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#112

Post by Arnt »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #43
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

In Holland they learned the hard way that you have to physically cordon off half of every road for bicycles. But you have to remember that just putting some paint on the pavement is a lot cheaper so that's what the government tries first. The reason why roads were taken back by Dutch cyclists and pedestrians is that they never stopped doing it. At some dark moment in the 1970s the number of children run over by cars…

Uhm, don't the Dutch separate cyclists and motorists only where the speed limit is >30km/h? At ≤30km/h there's no separation at all IIRC.

Good news about Milan, though. That'll be such an improvement.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#113

Post by peoplefromibiza »

martopix wrote: post #110

Milan and other large Italian cities have a terrible car-centric culture. In Rome this is more justified because public transport sucks. In Milan, I don't get it. I will believe this kind of change only when I see it.

> In Milan, I don't get it

Italian from Rome living in Milan for 8 years now.

The explanation is simple: transport of goods _and_ a lot of people coming from Monza/Brianza area to work in Milan and back home in the evening.

Crazy at it seems, they prefer to use their cars over the (frankly terrible) regional trains, that in theory can do Monza-Milan in 10 minutes, but in practice most of the times are late, overcrowded or canceled, with no warnings.

There's also a lot of traffic between Milan and San Donato Milanese where a lot of large companies have their own old school giant offices with thousands of employees (Eni, for example) .

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#114

Post by the_monocle »

laputan_machine wrote: post #2

I wish my country would invest more into cycling infrastructure, £200m for 750km of track seems like a pretty good deal (if it's useful). Road infrastructure costs vary, but the last figure I read was around £10m/mile for the UK.

Also don’t forget that road infrastructure actually is a HUGE maintenance burden and thats where most of its cost problems arise.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#115

Post by 999900000999 »

blamazon wrote: post #109
999900000999 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly anti-car myself, But factor in cycling is not practical transportation for most people. It targets a certain demographic, people who have the physical ability to actually cycle. What about those who cannot, what about disabled people? Even if you are fit, anything more that 10 miles a day is difficult. I'm a massive fan of public transit, however, as an American this means I can only live in a handful of c…

E-bikes and other electric personal conveyances disrupt various arguments you raised.

Ok,

Weather ?

Say it's raining, this makes riding a bike much more dangerous. Or even just heat, if it's over 90 F out biking is going to be rough.

American cities are spread out to the point you may need to drive 5 miles to buy some oat meal. Fix that first, I'd vastly prefer smaller cities.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#116

Post by Tade0 »

mdrzn wrote: post #91
taude wrote: post #87

Bikes are a pretty big part of Italian transport, or at least more so than any other place I've been other than Amsterdam. My girlfriend lived in a small town about 1.5 hours outside of Milan for a year, and was surprised by the bike path system that linked all the towns together around Lake Garda, and how old some of the people were who were riding to visit friends and family. Literally, age wasn't a reason to not r…

Italian here: good weather, bikes are kinda cheap, why wouldn't you bike often? The more you bike, the better the infrastructure gets around you.

Bike theft. When I lived in Bologna it was so rampant that there was a place where you could assemble a bike for free out of the parts left by thieves, picked up by the cleaning services.

Then again Bologna isn't particularly large. I never had a need to cycle there. I would either walk or drive and occasionally use public transport.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#117

Post by peoplefromibiza »

TBF the new biking lane in Viale Monza sucks big time.

Also: you can make how many bike lanes you want, they will never make biking in the cold comfortable, especially for people that are not used to it.

A lot of people living in Milan come from warmer weathers.

So the main users of bike paths are riders delivering food with their e-bikes and/or tier scooters.

EDIT: I've been living in Milan for 8 years, i live where the new bike lane is, it's 100% a design by committee [1], that it's so bad that sometimes it runs on the right of public transports, so when the bus has to stop, the bikes run into the people getting off, some other times it runs on the left of the bus stop, so when the bus has to stop it needs to cross over the bike lane, which is as dangerous as you might think.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#118

Post by Eric_WVGG »

999900000999 wrote: post #93
Eric_WVGG wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cycling is not practical transportation for most people. It targets a certain demographic, people who have the physical ability to actually cycle. That's… most people. Like I get it, we have an obesity epidemic, but fat people can ride bicycles. It's not unusual. And a lot of them start shedding pounds fast once you get them out of the automated wheeled easy-chairs we call "cars."

For myself cycling takes about twice as long. Assuming a peak physical condition, then driving. Taking the metro is a bit faster than cycling, I consider myself to be an okay shape. I still need to lose about 20 lb to get to where I want to be, and I still don't think I'd be up to the challenge of hopping on a bike for all my commuting needs. If you want to propose something, you have to factor in what people are wil…

I was referring to the assertion that "most people [cannot] ride a bicycle." Nobody, overweight or not, is going to bike 4 hours a day to get to and from work, that's outside the scope of what we were discussing.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#119

Post by owenwil »

999900000999 wrote: post #115
blamazon wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

E-bikes and other electric personal conveyances disrupt various arguments you raised.

Ok, Weather ? Say it's raining, this makes riding a bike much more dangerous. Or even just heat, if it's over 90 F out biking is going to be rough. American cities are spread out to the point you may need to drive 5 miles to buy some oat meal. Fix that first, I'd vastly prefer smaller cities.

> Say it's raining, this makes riding a bike much more dangerous.

Wait what, why? Because I'm going to get a bit wet? The rain is no more a threat to a cyclist's safety than it is to a car on a wet day. You just might need to wear a rain jacket, too.

The Dutch certainly don't give a shit about rain, snow or shine, as the saying goes "there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothes."

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#120

Post by usrusr »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #43
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

In Holland they learned the hard way that you have to physically cordon off half of every road for bicycles. But you have to remember that just putting some paint on the pavement is a lot cheaper so that's what the government tries first. The reason why roads were taken back by Dutch cyclists and pedestrians is that they never stopped doing it. At some dark moment in the 1970s the number of children run over by cars…

Have the roads been taken back though? Segregated trickle-lanes have been taken, but in the process the roads themselves have become effectively limited access down to tertiary level. I'm not saying that the Dutch method is bad, the results speak a very different language, but "taken back" is not what happened.
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