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Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

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Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#261

Post by bagacrap »

jason0597 wrote: post #220
busterarm wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shh, every time those of us who have been in actual unions and actually had terrible experiences voice our opinions we get downvoted into oblivion. It's not worth it, m8.

So the current arrangement of service workers being paid slave wages and given disgusting conditions is working fine?

I don't see how individual unions help solve this problem. A union that makes meaningful changes to conditions and wages at one employer would hobble that employer's ability to compete, they'd go out of business, and a non-unionized workforce/employer would replace them. This seems like a job for government and/or market forces. The latter actually have been working well recently near where I live, as the labor shortage has caused many employers in the restaurant industry to raise starting salaries to ~$20/hr before tips.

That said, this article is about tech workers, not line cooks, so any conclusions drawn from union experiences at $COFFEECHAIN are perhaps not easily mappable to Google.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#262

Post by uncomputation »

micromacrofoot wrote: post #245
awb wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders Exploit you with industry leading pay and perks? Unions are designed to balance out monopolistic / low pay / highly geographical companies like large auto manufacturers or airlines. There is so much competitive hiring in tech, it’s one of the easiest c…

You're severely underestimating the power of collective bargaining. A good union will advocate for you even if you don't do anything. It removes a lot of the secrecy, ambiguity, and work when it comes to getting the maximum value out of your employment. Too worn out or anxious to keep pushing for a raise? the union's got it. Issues that you would never mention to your boss as an individual for fear of retaliation? th…

> even if you don't do anything

From my experience, this sounds awful. I have a person on my team currently that does nothing and brings down team morale and it’s pretty clear that everyone would want them gone. We might even work better because we wouldn’t work under the assumption that we have N people when we really have something like N - 1.

Perhaps unions are better when you don’t depend on your coworkers’ contributions as directly as you do in tech. e.g. teachers.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#263

Post by nonameiguess »

yupper32 wrote: post #138

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions. For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that? Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

While I don't think the situations are necessarily completely analogous because the total workforce size is a lot different, I think it's still worth pointing out that this is somewhat analogous in a lot of ways to the situation with pro athletes. They could easily have stayed happy earning many multiples of an American median salary, even though owners were taking an immensely disproportionate share of the profit pie. But, instead, they unionized, and now earn even more multiples of an American median salary.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#264

Post by thrwyoilarticle »

busterarm wrote: post #175
bradleyjg wrote: post #156

It’s a real shame that the middle and upper classes in the US have abandoned having their teens work in favor of various, expensive, college application boosting fluff. I went to work at McDonalds at age 15 and was part of a union. I have direct experience with what that is like. I don’t need to get my knowledge on the subject from flamewars between people pushing ideological agendas (most of whom themselves have app…

Shh, every time those of us who have been in actual unions and actually had terrible experiences voice our opinions we get downvoted into oblivion. It's not worth it, m8.

Please don't make irrefutable arguments based on theoretical downvotes

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#265

Post by knappe »

awb wrote: post #219
queuebert wrote: post #23

Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.

> treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders Exploit you with industry leading pay and perks? Unions are designed to balance out monopolistic / low pay / highly geographical companies like large auto manufacturers or airlines. There is so much competitive hiring in tech, it’s one of the easiest c…

It is so strange that Google lobbied so hard against something like this and then tried to ensure it didn't get traced back to them. Almost like it saw there being a big downside to a union being formed. I really wonder why that is?

Honestly, I really can't see this anti-union rhetoric as anything but being terribly naive.

For further evidence of bad behavior that you can't avoid by changing jobs (because under this scheme you wouldn't be hired!). https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-po...

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#266

Post by robotburrito »

WFHRenaissance wrote: post #239
robotburrito wrote: post #232

What really needs to happen is the unionization of the second class they employ. These people do literally the same jobs as the people they used to sit next to. Sit through the same "OMG aren't we so great at changing the world!" team meetings, put in the same insane hours (my partner was limited to 40 hours a week, yet they are all working over time to keep up appearances and hope they get actually hired full time).…

Can you elaborate on who this second class is?

Engineers, artists, etc hired as "temp" workers. Mostly will work there a year until they are cycled out for someone else as to not have to treat them like full timers.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#267

Post by mrits »

_wolfie_ wrote: post #133
ergocoder wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the same problem, isn't it? If I want to work on those projects and don't agree with the union, and 50% of the Union vote the other way, my only choice is also to quit. I don't agree with the union's direction of forbidding company to work on a perfectly legal project. If you want the project to be illegal, maybe call your senate instead?

I don't know how the union law works in the US. Over here (Europe), you can have multiple unions in one company. It takes minimal 3 people to form one. So you could probably form a union for pro-DoD people?

I'm not so sure a body full of people that voted for our politicians are going to indirectly fix their unethical behavior through a corporation.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#268

Post by julienb_sea »

I don't know that it's surprising or disappointing that Google was exploring PR related to their recent employee activism scandals. It would seem pretty incompetent for them to just ignore the problem and hope it goes away. As you can see from HR's comment threads, it's not an easy discussion to have and arguments for and against unions are painted as biased propaganda in either direction.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#269

Post by mlindner »

No surprise here, and not something I'd personally be against anyway. Not sure why any Googler would unionize anyway, they already get paid more than most of the rest of the valley. Maybe a union would drop their pay down to levels closer to the rest of the valley.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#270

Post by joebob42 »

4ec0755f5522 wrote: post #180

When I was very young I worked a tough job that had a mandatory union and it was quite terrible / weak. Working conditions were pretty bad, physical labor, etc. But it was not until I worked a job with no union that I realized every element of that job that didn't suck was due to the union. For example we had supervisors but they didn't follow you around and micromanage you. You were just expected to do your job. If…

Just a note: I agree that spending millions fighting unions is strong evidence unions are bad for the company. It's not necessarily obvious this means unions are good for the employees.
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