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School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

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Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#201

Post by sofixa »

laurent92 wrote: post #199
sofixa wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please elaborate how are lockdowns not a solution to stop the spread of a pandemic, because they most certainly are, and stopped every country's health system to get to the terrible state Italy's got at the beginning. It's actually quite easy - the virus is airborne. If most people stay indoors and don't meet other people, the spread is significantly stopped.

1. You’re overoptimizing for Covid, and not for health, 2. The adverse effects of mental and physical heath are irreversible, 3. The tanking of the economy and the debt (until 2048 for France) is irreversible, 4. You didn’t even solve Covid.

Those are valid and debatable issues, and a lot can be said about them ( like that the economic downturn isn't optional and is due to the pandemic, as countries like Sweden and states in the US which didn't do any sort of lockdown showed us).

However, the question is do lockdowns help against a pandemic? I don't see how anyone can argue with that. The downsides are indeed significant and need to be taken into account, but it's just a fact that lockdowns severely limit the spread of an airborne virus like COVID-19.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#202

Post by sersi »

blindmute wrote: post #192
908B64B197 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why couldn't you just sleep earlier at night? Can you? Consensus has emerged in the last few years that the circadian rhythm is mostly regulated hormonally, with a strong genetic factor. So that would be akin to telling a black person to "just get whiter skin". > Everyone complains about having to get up early, but the sleep deprivation is self inflicted. If you're tired, you can sleep at 9pm. Do you have a reliabl…

There's enough artificial light that circadian rhythm barely applies to teens. Yes, I can change my sleep schedule, and have done so multiple times. If you're tired enough to be "sleep deprived" then you're going to be perfectly capable of going to sleep at 10 instead of 1am, barring some insomniac disorder. It's dark outside at both times. Circadian rhythm doesn't overrule real sleep deprivation. If you're tired, yo…

I have tried sleeping earlier on times I'm sleep deprived, the only result is me staying in my bed for hours on end without sleeping. As a kid, as I mentioned in my original post, my parents would put me to bed with lights out around 9. I wasn't able to sleep despite being sleep deprived.

Nowadays, I work in a different time zone and due to work and meetings, I sleep around 3am every day. I fall asleep instantly and get my full 7-8 hours of sleep every day. Having the correct rhythm changes everything. I've never been able to do that earlier in the day and I tend to have extreme difficulty adjusting and sleeping earlier if I travel and have to deal with jetlag.

You're lucky but stop assuming that everyone is the same as you and that everyone can sleep early. If you've never known the feeling of being extremely tired and sleep deprived yet not being able to sleep then, I don't see how you can make generalisations and assume that it's the case for everyone else??

At this point, there's plenty of research that shows that your basic understanding is wrong, that circadian rhythm are not only a function of ambient light.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#203

Post by animal_spirits »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #191
hirako2000 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my solution worked ok: sleep at school. it's not ideal, but it also saved me from being entirely brainwashed and prevented teachers from killing my creativity. let's not ignore the fact schools were designed long ago to 1/ shape future factory workers into well behaved blue collars, while 2/ making it possible for parents to go to work. before the industrial revolution, most people were farmers. Kids were out playing…

> before the industrial revolution, most people were farmers. Kids were out playing, stayed home safe or participated to gardening activities. Ah yes, the good old times where nobody could read or write and your only perspective in life was to be a farmer like your father and his father before him!

No one is claiming that was better, just giving a brief history of how we got where we are.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#204

Post by laurent92 »

sofixa wrote: post #201
laurent92 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. You’re overoptimizing for Covid, and not for health, 2. The adverse effects of mental and physical heath are irreversible, 3. The tanking of the economy and the debt (until 2048 for France) is irreversible, 4. You didn’t even solve Covid.

Those are valid and debatable issues, and a lot can be said about them ( like that the economic downturn isn't optional and is due to the pandemic, as countries like Sweden and states in the US which didn't do any sort of lockdown showed us). However, the question is do lockdowns help against a pandemic? I don't see how anyone can argue with that. The downsides are indeed significant and need to be taken into account…

Just today: “Youth suicide attempts soared during the pandemic.” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29859149

We don’t have the figures yet, that’s why we think lockdowns helped. But cholesterol doesn’t kill immediately. Alcohol doesn’t kill immediately. Loneliness doesn’t kill immediately, it slowly settles as friendships got destroyed in anger during the pandemic, and new meetups didn’t arrive, and the guy becomes homeless 5 years later. It may take years, but a lot of human misery will have been triggered by choosing lockdowns. We don’t even have the figures yet.

> severely limits the spread of an airborne virus

Yes, while we’re locked, and then it just takes weeks to recirculate as normal. It took >1 year to get the vaccines, only a 1 year lockdown would have solved us, therefore it is …not a solution to anything to lock people down.

Not a secret that solitary confinement in prisons is used to destroy someone. Lockdowns made a lot of people completely crazy, particularly the people you don’t notice immediately. But who cares, we’ve solved Covid! Wait, we didn’t.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#205

Post by laumars »

laumars wrote: post #87
throwawayboise wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High schoolers do not need daycare; they also do not need parents to dress them and get them to school. They should be able to manage those things on their own, and take care of themselves for a few unsupervised hours a day.

“Should” and “can be trusted to” are two totally different things. Much as we want to give kids responsibility and as much as some kids will thrive off it, others don’t yet that the maturity to look after themselves even for short periods. And here lies the problem. You often end up setting up social systems to support the worst cases rather than the best of even average populous.

I figured that would get downvoted by one of the liberals on here. Unfortunately civilised society doesn’t work to ideals and thus sometimes you need to impose boundaries rather than work entirely on faith (hence why we have laws).

It’s one of those things you realise once you are responsible for kids of your own (and no, pets don’t count). Much as you cringe setting the same boundaries you hated growing up, you realise you realise they exist for a reason.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#206

Post by sofixa »

laurent92 wrote: post #204
sofixa wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are valid and debatable issues, and a lot can be said about them ( like that the economic downturn isn't optional and is due to the pandemic, as countries like Sweden and states in the US which didn't do any sort of lockdown showed us). However, the question is do lockdowns help against a pandemic? I don't see how anyone can argue with that. The downsides are indeed significant and need to be taken into account…

Just today: “Youth suicide attempts soared during the pandemic.” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29859149 We don’t have the figures yet, that’s why we think lockdowns helped. But cholesterol doesn’t kill immediately. Alcohol doesn’t kill immediately. Loneliness doesn’t kill immediately, it slowly settles as friendships got destroyed in anger during the pandemic, and new meetups didn’t arrive, and the guy becomes…

We solved the initial exponential growths that were threatening to or did overload the medical system. It was the only possible solution.

Edited to add: furthermore, in most countries deaths not related to Covid fell drastically compared to previous years, including suicides. Yes, the fallout medium-long term is still to come, but you can't deny that it did stop the immediate very dangerous impact. In countries like Italy and France military hospitals had to be deployed, and many in intensive care were transferred to neighbouring countries. You can't just dismiss this and say people stuck alone at home had it worse than those on the ventilators.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#207

Post by blitzar »

rhino369 wrote: post #152
blitzar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of children should do sports, music, etc, especially time intensive ones (especially at a young age) not a small percentage.

If 100% should--an I sort of agree--then it should be built into the school day a bit better.

You just invented private schools, or at least everyone I have experienced ... every child (up to about 14/15 - after which you could scale back) mandatory to do sport, music, 1 extra activity/club.

Organised by the school and generally carried out 3-5pm & Saturday morning.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#208

Post by blitzar »

t-3 wrote: post #69
blitzar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of children should do sports, music, etc, especially time intensive ones (especially at a young age) not a small percentage.

That sounds like hell. I was forced into music and soccer for ~6 years as a child, and my complete lack of talent is the only thing that stopped my parents from keeping me at it, they thought like you and didn't care that it was miserable and boring. We are not all the same, and we don't all need to be the same.

> they thought like you and didn't care that it was miserable and boring

If kids were allowed to not do things they identify as find miserable and boring, practically everything in the world would be off the table and the next generatation would be totally and utterly fucked.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#209

Post by hirako2000 »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #191
hirako2000 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my solution worked ok: sleep at school. it's not ideal, but it also saved me from being entirely brainwashed and prevented teachers from killing my creativity. let's not ignore the fact schools were designed long ago to 1/ shape future factory workers into well behaved blue collars, while 2/ making it possible for parents to go to work. before the industrial revolution, most people were farmers. Kids were out playing…

> before the industrial revolution, most people were farmers. Kids were out playing, stayed home safe or participated to gardening activities. Ah yes, the good old times where nobody could read or write and your only perspective in life was to be a farmer like your father and his father before him!

as other comment pointed out, nobody is making a value comparison, but since you are at it, at least let's not be derogatory about farmers life. there is still a good portion of the world population living that lifestyle. Having been closely in touch with some, a few interesting things stood out to me: they have outstanding communication skills and are very pragmatic, down to earth when assessing their own situation vs the urbanised population, are far less easily influenced and seem to have a gotten a far more hollistic education. they navigate a difficult economy where they produce undoubtly tremendous value yet get a small share of the reward and respect. To get back on the thread subject, I don't recall having seen any sleep deprived farmers, despite the hard labour they have to participate in each day of their hardship seasons. I'm not sure what is their only perspective, it may well be to be a farmer, I never asked that question since it appeared to me that they aren't suffering existential issues. what is your perspective(s) in life? other than being able to read, write and not being a farmer?

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#210

Post by hirako2000 »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #191
hirako2000 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my solution worked ok: sleep at school. it's not ideal, but it also saved me from being entirely brainwashed and prevented teachers from killing my creativity. let's not ignore the fact schools were designed long ago to 1/ shape future factory workers into well behaved blue collars, while 2/ making it possible for parents to go to work. before the industrial revolution, most people were farmers. Kids were out playing…

> before the industrial revolution, most people were farmers. Kids were out playing, stayed home safe or participated to gardening activities. Ah yes, the good old times where nobody could read or write and your only perspective in life was to be a farmer like your father and his father before him!

I've cared sharing your comment with two farmers, they appear to be able to read so their response may not be representative of the audience you had in mind: Be a farmer just one day and you will change your mind. I think it's wise advice as it wouldn't take long rethoric for some truth to reveal itself, and surely would be a valuable experience.
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