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Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

mrsteinberg.com

281–290 of 328 posts

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#281

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That's true, if everyone is willing to use labour cost as the limit of price - otherwise profit would recreate the system of capital domination. It seems like a hard bargain to maintain if a currency substitute like labour vouchers are used.

It can only happen if unlimited concentration of capital is possible in the first place. In property right systems based on use (i.e. where society refuses to protect other property claims), this is not the case.

I understand that, but I believe that a market based system allows a capitalist system to be bootstrapped from within anarchy. If I'm able to trade for profit within the market, say in a voucher system, I can use those vouchers to purchase security from other less ideological people and bootstrap the coercive relationship between profit and violence. Maybe free market anarchists have an answer to this, but I'd hope that a revolutionary society could do better than repeating the inhumane parts of capitalism that originate from the market and could recreate it wholesale.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free things, literally, do not exist If free things don't exist, what are for-sale things made of?

I do not understand your question. But my point is that things are not done by magic. Someone works on them, someone gets the material (if it is a product). Someone spends time. If a machine does it, someone created the machine (it is usually many people for a single industrial machine) and someone bought it. There is literally always, someone, at some point in time that paid with time and/or money to trade something…

> There is literally always, someone, at some point in time that paid with time and/or money to trade something.

But how did the trade get started?

Does it go back into an infinite past? An infinite series of trades, with neither an end, nor even beginning?

Otherwise it would seem something must be free.

Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatio_ex_nihilo

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#283
post #217

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If you develop type-2 diabetes, you may be able to cure it by not eating any sugar for a few weeks. And, keep it off after, if you never eat sugar except with enough fiber. I.e., apples ok, donuts & froot loops not. That is good advice for all of us: there is never a good reason to give yourself type-2 diabetes. For many people, cinnamon is a good temporary treatment for type-2 diabetes. But some people have a bad re…

>If you develop type-2 diabetes, you may be able to cure it by not eating any sugar for a few weeks. Developing type-2 diabetes will be a process that happens over several decades. So which few weeks is it that I need to stop eating sugar? I need to know because I was going to make cookies. >there is never a good reason to give yourself type-2 diabetes I've taken medication that progressively leads to type 2 diabetes…

I will add that for everybody who has type-2 diabetes as a side effect of medication, there must be tens or hundreds of thousands who came by it much more accidentally (except insofar as it is a direct consequence of phenomenally, catastrophically, absurdly harmful public policy still in force in the US).

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That exists everywhere in the world. The only difference is that Cuba doesn't have the opportunity to exploit foreign nations to enrich itself (and get even fatter on taxes).

I am really interested in knowing what "exploiting foreign nations" means for you. Exploiting is what Cuba does with its doctors when they send them abroad and take 70% and kidnap their passports as if they were animals, or when you are assigned an arbitrary government salary for the sake of it without any possibility of alternatives. Please explain to me what exploiting is: paying less than what you think they deser…

I'm referring to the influence a master nation exerts spiritually, psychologically, and materially on another, and its peoples, for the purpose of enriching itself materially.

Cuba's exploitation of its doctor is a piece (one I do not have a full-understanding of, nor the care) of a greater whole.

Slavery and exerting power on a select group of people is obvious, and clear to see -- but the boundaries are clear and isolated.

Colonialism and exerting power on a whole peoples is less obvious, and harder to see -- because its boundaries are muddy and the things it affects are innumerable.

We can go even more high-level, but I do not know yet how to describe it.

I am uninterested in isolated "pieces" of the greater puzzle. In my view, they are ever-changing and indicative of greater causes; ones that are systemic, all-encroaching, and much more valuable to identify and root out---if I want the isolated incidents to stop fractaling, and reappearing.

Isolated injustices, like Cuba's, are of little concern to me. This is not my battle; it is the battle of the Cuban peoples. My battle is against the Rube Goldberg machine of my humanity, and the rest.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#285
post #171

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You paint a good picture of Cuba, but what is life as a jaded resident of The City like?

I would definitely not want to live under that regime. Cubans are generally happy people with good lives but they lack the opportunities for higher ambitions. Corrupt, planned economy is not something to be excited for nor is the being the lowest class in a “classless” society. They are also missing out about the world outside of their borders due to the restrictions on their communications. It’s just that the wester…

>Cubans are generally happy people with good lives

Some, but definitely not most. Step out of the touristic areas sometime and you will see. Poverty, poor healthcare, slow, overpriced internet, blackouts, food shortages, very low wages and very high prices, some places only get tap water for a few hours a day (sometimes every few days)... Such good lives they have.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... if you can't believe in something that hasn't yet existed, how does anything come to be at all? Or do you deny that there is any theoretical thought behind communism at all? Is it just something people suddenly found themselves doing, and it failed and that was that? How does someone dream of things that are better? How can you have faith in anything at all? Is not the love you feel towards your friends and…

Quoted post unavailable.

Portugal is a market economy. A government party can have socialism in its name, that does not mean the government is socialist (like DPRK is not democratic at all). This is also true for many other countries on the list.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it that to have a "workers collective" or whatever, seems to require heavy handed government intervention to prevent competition with privately owned businesses which seem to just spring up and thrive all on their own. Let's investigate this claim a little bit. First of all, when I think about heavy handed government intervention, I think about the use of lethal force. Labor history in the United States is r…

What about the heavy hand of government that keeps people from competing with unions in non-right to work states? If a union negotiates $100/hour for some pud job anyone can do, and I'm willing to do it for $99, then why does the union get to keep me from taking the job? Why does someone else's wants interfere with my free negotiations with someone else? History is also replete with unions beating 'scabs' to death, l…

Forced-union laws are authorized at the federal level by the NLRA [0] and the RLA [1]. The NLRA was passed in response to one of the incidents I left out, the Ludlow Massacre [2], when a private corporate army in cooperation with the Colorado National Guard slaughtered 21 striking workers and their families, including children.

The RLA was passed in response to the Great Railroad Strike of 1877, which I mentioned in my previous post. This was an uprising that spanned multiple states, and resulted in over 100 deaths.

These laws which you regard as heavy handed were paid for with literal blood at the hands of the federal government and corporations. I think it's important to point out the scope and scale of these things. On one hand you have the federal government mobilizing the machines of war at the behest of, and in coordination with corporations, to slaughter workers and their families for having the audacity to ask for better working conditions. That's heavy handed.

On the other side you have laws passed in response to this bloodshed that were intended to help tilt the scales in the other direction just a bit. That's not heavy handed. Maybe you feel that these kinds of restrictions are heavy and onerous, but really I don't think it's fair to draw an equivalency.

As for Caesar Chavez, I don't think that's an example of heavy handed government intervention. It seems more like interclass violence, and it's sad. I will be the first to say that no one really comes out of the labor rights movement squeaky clean. But I think it's the government and corporations who have the highest body count and deserve most of the blame, because they had most of the money and power at the time. They could have chosen and afforded to not resort to violence, others in more precarious situations felt that violence was the only choice.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_o...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Labor_Act

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#288
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

What is the connection between Cuba and "Excess mortality in Wuhan city and other parts of China during the three months of the covid-19 outbreak: findings from nationwide mortality registries"? Are you saying that since we know that Chinese statistics are accurate, Cuban statistics must also be?

I don't think there's a connection. I think we might have tripped up some keyword and got a copy-pasted response.

Posting history suggest that poster references this study pretty frequently.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am really interested in knowing what "exploiting foreign nations" means for you. Exploiting is what Cuba does with its doctors when they send them abroad and take 70% and kidnap their passports as if they were animals, or when you are assigned an arbitrary government salary for the sake of it without any possibility of alternatives. Please explain to me what exploiting is: paying less than what you think they deser…

I'm referring to the influence a master nation exerts spiritually, psychologically, and materially on another, and its peoples, for the purpose of enriching itself materially. Cuba's exploitation of its doctor is a piece (one I do not have a full-understanding of, nor the care) of a greater whole. Slavery and exerting power on a select group of people is obvious, and clear to see -- but the boundaries are clear and i…

> Colonialism and exerting power on a whole peoples is less obvious, and harder to see

Give me examples of colonialism nowadays. Or what you consider colonialism.

For me exploiting is only one thing: forcing the other part to do something under threat or coaction.

Namely: "we should pay more to x, y, z" is not exploiting. Going to them and forcing them to work for us, it is. When someone does not have alternative and you have something to offer, that is not exploiting, even if it looks like little to us. The solution for these people to get more is to have more people trying to employ them, then salaries get higher. This is a relatively slow process, but it happens (it happened in history).

We go to less developed nations because it is cheaper. True. And they benefit from it. Are they worse than us? No, it is just their countries did not reach the same conditions yet. But you would say: hey, we should pay them more, give them a better place to live, blabla, which I get, it is ok, I am with you in part, but there is a problem: people buy the products that are cheaper for the same kind of product. And it makes sense: you will not pay more than you need for something (I mean a meaningful extra amount that limits what you can do, not one cent more or less, of course), since you have a limited amount of money, which is resources.

So at the end you have a chain of supply where if you raise the prices much, people will stop buying. If people stop buying, people in developing countries go unemployed. It is all a chain. So now you would ask: how do you raise the salaries for these people? Letting many employers, I mean as many as possible, enter the country, because that means that employers start competing for the employees and the salaries get higher. They cut on their profits if they cannot find workers.

This is how it works. Many people do not understand it. I have been there, working there, living there in places where this happens. And the difference between some of these people having an employment that is probably three times and health care insurance (I talk about Vietnam, but this happens in many developing countries in similar ways) is that the sister of one of those guys does not end up doing what you are thinking and instead goes to university with the help of the family.

This is the reason why I cannot call that exploiting. They improve their lives, eventually they will learn and compete with us (they already do in some areas or are starting to).

I find very hypocrite people complaining about better conditions for others (we all want that I guess) when it is not them who pay the bill.

There is no replacement for this way of developing IMHO, and it has been the model of success, with all its problems.

Forced redistribution is awful to make people wealthy, even if it looks counter-intuitive, because we all have a tendency to think that if someone has a lot and someone has too little, then we take away from one and give to another.

But what many people do not take into account is that doing that kills the incentive to create the wealth in the first place.

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