How to design a house to last 1000 years • Hacker News Board

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#281

Post by londons_explore » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

The biggest risk to a house built today for the next 1000 years is regulatory.

Eg. The government coming round and saying "this isn't up to spec for [energy efficiency, fire safety, future housing requirements], it needs to be torn down and rebuilt".

The way to defend against that is to make it a building of historical importance, so that rules or exceptions are written specifically for it.

So my 1000 year building will be a massive artpiece, cathedral, or something along those lines.

As soon as you get famous enough, it doesn't matter what materials your building is made of, it will end up being maintained.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#282

Post by ok_dad » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #232

rsync wrote: post #98

This is a very odd design document and it makes me think this author has thought a lot about materials and buildings but not actually built anything . The steel moment frame, to someone with shallow knowledge, sounds so strong and resilient . But in fact, a rigid steel structure is more vulnerable to seismic (and even wind) loads than wooden framing which can flex and move and dampen those loads naturally. The stainl…

> If I had an unlimited budget and was aiming for >1000 years I would pour the piles to bedrock with stainless rebar inside fly-ash concrete and top those pilings with plate connectors into which you could socket large wooden columns (perhaps 8x8) and build the structure with large wooden members connected with steel connectors and column caps, etc. Are there any existing buildings constructed that way that have stoo…

I would certainly use wood, and then just design it like the Japanese do for their old buildings, which are continuously repaired and after 1000 years you would still have the same home but it would be a Ship of Theseus type of situation. Wood has been used for building for thousands of years, and I wood imagine that humanity will forever be using wood for building, so there is a small chance you would lose the knowledge of how to build with it.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#283

Post by Robotbeat » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:20 PM UTC

One problem is that stainless is valuable. So is aluminum. Even regular steel has scrap value. The Great Pyramid lost its nice smooth exterior simply because the rock it was made of was nice and not easily available in that area.

Build it out of basalt blocks in an area with lots of basalt. Low seismic activity, ideally no freeze/thaw cycle, little to no water, and no humans.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#284

Post by drewzero1 » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:22 PM UTC

SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #175

Fiahil wrote: post #128

I expected something much simpler : bricks, stones, and wood. It's not like we are running low on examples of 1000+ years buildings ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_century_in_architecture ). These castles, cathedrals, farms, were built to last, so it's appropriate to use them as examples. We can, however, apply modern technics and materials when they make sense : insulation, windows, waterways... Prefer wood, wo…

> We can, however, apply modern technics and materials when they make sense : insulation, windows, waterways... The article raises an important point that could be a problem when trying to mix old and new build techniques. When talking about brick walls it says: > One tricky thing with this type of assembly is that while it has performed well historically, it doesn’t necessarily play nice with more modern, energy eff…

A lesson I've been repeatedly learning since buying an old house, is that many design decisions that seem dumb now were actually optimized very well for what was available at the time. It can be a real challenge to try to retrofit modern efficiency and comfort into a home that was designed for constraints and expectations of another time.

We recently replaced our furnace and found the footprint of the original coal-fired "octopus" gravity furnace, and learning about the operation of the old furnace makes the seemingly inadequate ductwork make more sense. Instead of a furnace blower (which hadn't been introduced yet at the time the house was built) the air moved around the house by convection and relied on a temperature differential between the center of the house and the outside walls. Hot air came up a few ducts in the middle of the house, and cold air came down through return ducts on the outside walls.

Unfortunately the chimney was also acting as a radiant heating element, and one of the upstairs bedrooms has become much colder since switching to the higher-efficiency furnace (which scavenges much more heat from the exhaust, and vents out the side of the house). Ultimately I'm sure the much more efficient furnace will be worth it, but there are trade-offs that will need to be addressed.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#285

Post by HPsquared » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:23 PM UTC

avereveard wrote: post #180

rsync wrote: post #98

This is a very odd design document and it makes me think this author has thought a lot about materials and buildings but not actually built anything . The steel moment frame, to someone with shallow knowledge, sounds so strong and resilient . But in fact, a rigid steel structure is more vulnerable to seismic (and even wind) loads than wooden framing which can flex and move and dampen those loads naturally. The stainl…

> If I had an unlimited budget at some point on the price scale you can just build a titanium cast for a house and pour molten rocks in, probably a basalt. what's the yield strength of igneous rocks? maybe the roof need to be arched.

Titanium is quite expensive though; a house made from titanium likely would be broken up and stolen for the scrap value.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#286

Post by jppope » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:26 PM UTC

austinl wrote: post #170

NortySpock wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent poster is probably referring to "How Buildings Learn", a book by Stewart Brand with lots of architectural pictures and commentary about how various buildings have been (re)used over the decades or centuries. Brand posits (a) human needs change faster than buildings age, and thus buildings must adapt to that change over the lifespan of the building (b) there are two reasons a building lives to be more than…

It's fascinating how culture has effects on architecture. So many older American homes have small kitchens that are separate from a formal dining room. Historically, a family member or cook would be making food separately, out of the way, and then it was presented in the dining room. Today, everyone wants a kitchen that's integrated with the dining area. Cooking has been culturally elevated – people don't feel like t…

This is super funny to me. I just bought a house where the kitchen is separate. My parents, and my mother-in-law were all like... "you can knock down the wall and bring the rooms together"... and I was like: "hell no. As if I want a bunch of kids playing tag while I'm chopping things with sharp knives and running around with burning oil."

...Leave me alone to cook an awesome meal in peace. I'm working in there not messing around.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#287

Post by HPsquared » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #3

If I were to design a house with the idea that it should serve future generations, I'd design it to be reconfigured, recycled, or torn down easily. After reading some of Stewart Brand's writing, I've learned to love ugly buildings.

Be wary of making it too ugly though - people will look after it much better if it's beautiful.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#288

Post by pharke » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #244

pharke wrote: post #239

They forgot the most important part about making a structure last 1000 years: it cannot be made of materials that people would conceivably want to repurpose in times of duress or those materials should be in such a form that it is extremely difficult to remove them from the structure. This is how many historical buildings were lost, they were mined for stone to use in other structures. It's also how many modern build…

"We’re also taking something of a risk using something as valuable as stainless steel - a common failure mode for buildings is for valuable material to be ripped out and repurposed. This can range from looters ripping the copper piping out of a house to sell for scrap, to Londoners reusing the stones from ruined Roman buildings, to countries at war melting down building components to make munitions. I don’t see an ob…

Missed it, thanks. I still take issue with the design. I think over 1000 years the risk is much higher than they imagine.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#289

Post by lstodd » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:31 PM UTC

skylanh wrote: post #193

rsync wrote: post #98

This is a very odd design document and it makes me think this author has thought a lot about materials and buildings but not actually built anything . The steel moment frame, to someone with shallow knowledge, sounds so strong and resilient . But in fact, a rigid steel structure is more vulnerable to seismic (and even wind) loads than wooden framing which can flex and move and dampen those loads naturally. The stainl…

> author has thought a lot about materials and buildings > but not actually built anything. That was my impression. As soon as they started talking about unenforced concrete pilings (drilled? monopile?) to bedrock and stressed steel framing I wasn't certain I would enjoy anymore or that it was a good use of my time. I think costs at this stage are unrealistically low "probably in the neighborhood of $1000-2000 per sq…

No you're right.

Stainless steel is insane, in those conditions it will corrode in several decades, if not faster.

Foundation is just laughable, it won't last 200 years, much less 1000.

Like you say, a structured pile of rocks with everything else easily replaceable is the recipe.

The question actually should be not of a several truck hits, but of several fires, like, complete burnouts. That's what would happen in 1000 years.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#290

Post by clairity » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

rlaanemets wrote: post #252

rsync wrote: post #98

This is a very odd design document and it makes me think this author has thought a lot about materials and buildings but not actually built anything . The steel moment frame, to someone with shallow knowledge, sounds so strong and resilient . But in fact, a rigid steel structure is more vulnerable to seismic (and even wind) loads than wooden framing which can flex and move and dampen those loads naturally. The stainl…

I would like to know more reasoning behind choosing a frame without diagonals. I have had to repair many old garages and shacks which had wooden frame but lacked diagonals. Often we had to push them upright and brace the frame with diagonals to avoid problems in the future. A cube-like building frame without diagonals or shear walls is unstable and does not sound so strong or resilient at all.

in a typical wood-frame wall, it's (usually) plywood nailed to the studs that acts to resist shear forces. you shouldn't need diagonal cross-members, unless there's not enough structural plywood cladding or not enough studding.