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How to design a house to last 1000 years

constructionphysics.substack.com

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Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#171

Post by kansface »

robocat wrote: post #133
ramshanker wrote: post #82

The moment I saw the diagram text "Seismic moment connection with Fuses", I knew it was not meant to last 1000 year. The moment you introduce seismic fuses, you need active Repair post a large earthquake. This is like expecting to keep repairing every few years and claim Life. My first though reading the title was, you need to build it with STONE. So was "Taj Mahal" and many other religious structure lasting LONG yea…

Stone is heavy: can you design a stone structure to withstand an earthquake? In my magnitude 6.2 experience, stone structures without massive steel framing fail in an earthquake.

Doesn't Italy have stone masonry construction that has lasted centuries? Maybe you need a really good foundation to pull it off?

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#172

Post by leoedin »

twobitshifter wrote: post #156
Fiahil wrote: post #128

I expected something much simpler : bricks, stones, and wood. It's not like we are running low on examples of 1000+ years buildings ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_century_in_architecture ). These castles, cathedrals, farms, were built to last, so it's appropriate to use them as examples. We can, however, apply modern technics and materials when they make sense : insulation, windows, waterways... Prefer wood, wo…

What is behind your thinking that plastic won’t last? Plastic is estimated to take 1000 years to decompose in landfills. Obviously it did not exist millennia ago, but I wouldn’t write it off as not future proof. I too have a 200 year old house and the sagging mentioned in the article seems inevitable in wood.

Plastics break down in sunlight, becoming brittle and easily broken. They're also basically impossible to repair if they do break. They can also been eaten by rodents.

However plastic is a great material for dark, rodent free places.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#173

Post by tinco »

Fiahil wrote: post #128

I expected something much simpler : bricks, stones, and wood. It's not like we are running low on examples of 1000+ years buildings ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_century_in_architecture ). These castles, cathedrals, farms, were built to last, so it's appropriate to use them as examples. We can, however, apply modern technics and materials when they make sense : insulation, windows, waterways... Prefer wood, wo…

The fact that there's still a lot of buildings still standing doesn't mean they were built perfect, it just means their construction has the possibility of lasting a 1000 years. For each of those buildings I bet there were 10 more with the exact same building techniques that are no longer standing.

A 1000 years is a lot of time to go without a fire. I think just because of the fire risk wood is simply out of the question. Well unless you can protect the wood against fire like the OP is doing with the steel.

Considering modern times, I think you would have to go one step further and also consider gas explosions and possibly being bombed as well. Just imagine how many 1000+ yr old buildings must have been in Germany before WW2.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#174

Post by dpark »

ramshanker wrote: post #82

The moment I saw the diagram text "Seismic moment connection with Fuses", I knew it was not meant to last 1000 year. The moment you introduce seismic fuses, you need active Repair post a large earthquake. This is like expecting to keep repairing every few years and claim Life. My first though reading the title was, you need to build it with STONE. So was "Taj Mahal" and many other religious structure lasting LONG yea…

Nothing about this design seems intended for 1000 years. It needs wood fireplaces in case that’s the only way of heating the space, but yeah, in a world where we’ve reverted to this, they’ll be able to weld stainless steel and source replacement seismic fuses.

So many elements of this thing don’t make sense together. Clad the whole thing in a double layer of brick that isn’t actually going to bear load? Why? This is unlikely to last for 1000 years anyway. It probably won’t survive the first major earthquake and even if it does you’ll probably have to tear it apart to get to those seismic fuses.

In general structures do not remain standing unless they are maintained, so plan for that. Assume the cladding can and will be replaced. The person who needs to do work on this imaginary house certainly isn’t going to reclad in this nonsense at 4x the cost of the brick veneer it actually needs. Hell, just wrap the thing in hardiplank and it will probably be fine for the first 100 years.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#175

Post by SkeuomorphicBee »

Fiahil wrote: post #128

I expected something much simpler : bricks, stones, and wood. It's not like we are running low on examples of 1000+ years buildings ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_century_in_architecture ). These castles, cathedrals, farms, were built to last, so it's appropriate to use them as examples. We can, however, apply modern technics and materials when they make sense : insulation, windows, waterways... Prefer wood, wo…

> We can, however, apply modern technics and materials when they make sense : insulation, windows, waterways...

The article raises an important point that could be a problem when trying to mix old and new build techniques. When talking about brick walls it says:

> One tricky thing with this type of assembly is that while it has performed well historically, it doesn’t necessarily play nice with more modern, energy efficient construction. A solid brick wall was traditionally designed to be exposed on the inside, exposing it to interior heat and allowing it to dry. Adding interior insulation makes the house much more comfortable, but also changes the thermal dynamics, potentially causing freeze/thaw damage in the brick, and allowing moisture to accumulate between the brick and the insulation. This is one of the many details that would need to be worked out for the complete design of the home.

You can't simply build something following the examples of a castle or a cathedral, but then add modern insulation, because the insulation won't allow the masonry to breath and dry to both sides, leading to water damage, mold, rot, ...

At the end of the day, a badly insulated building can be made to last for ages passively by just making it breath, so the temperature and humidity vary with the weather but are kept in check by passive external factors (e.g. the sun shining on a external wall dries it from the outside). While a well insulated building absolutely needs constant mechanical HVAC with fine tuned control. You can have a well insulated building or a passive building, you can't have both (by the way, the "Passive House TM" insulation standard is a complete misnomer, being that mechanical ventilation is its second biggest tenet).

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#176

Post by dpark »

kansface wrote: post #171
robocat wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stone is heavy: can you design a stone structure to withstand an earthquake? In my magnitude 6.2 experience, stone structures without massive steel framing fail in an earthquake.

Doesn't Italy have stone masonry construction that has lasted centuries? Maybe you need a really good foundation to pull it off?

I think you just need a lot more stone than people think. Ancient structures still standing had massive construction. 3-4 foot thick walls. If I recall correctly, the Roman coliseum has arches that are more like 6-8 feet thick.

But most structures standing for that long have also been maintained to some degree. Unmaintained millennium-old structures are generally referred to as ruins.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#177

Post by Spooky23 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #137
jacquesm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, another way to spell Slate roof = work. The reason is simple: Slate, layers of fossilized leaves, has a rough surface and frost and the weather in general will work on it and split the layers apart, seeds will find enough purchase to germinate (the handy supply of water certainly helps) and lichen and moss just love to grow on slate. This whole article to me reads: "I'm planning on an overpriced construction for…

> Slate, layers of fossilized leaves, has a rough surface and frost and the weather in general will work on it and split the layers apart, seeds will find enough purchase to germinate (the handy supply of water certainly helps) and lichen and moss just love to grow on slate. 25 years ago, when I saw some roofers working to replace an old slate roof on a church outside Philadelphia with asphalt (I was horrified), I as…

That may be more of a typical “newer stuff is garbage”.

I live in upstate NY, arguably a nastier climate, and it’s not atypical to see 19th century buildings with intact slate roofs.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#178

Post by kgran »

austinl wrote: post #170
NortySpock wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent poster is probably referring to "How Buildings Learn", a book by Stewart Brand with lots of architectural pictures and commentary about how various buildings have been (re)used over the decades or centuries. Brand posits (a) human needs change faster than buildings age, and thus buildings must adapt to that change over the lifespan of the building (b) there are two reasons a building lives to be more than…

It's fascinating how culture has effects on architecture. So many older American homes have small kitchens that are separate from a formal dining room. Historically, a family member or cook would be making food separately, out of the way, and then it was presented in the dining room. Today, everyone wants a kitchen that's integrated with the dining area. Cooking has been culturally elevated – people don't feel like t…

Not just American homes. In Europe all the new flats and houses are designed with kitchens merged with the dining room. Even the old flats are often redesigned by owners or developers by tearing down the wall(s), separating the kitchen from the other room(s). I personally hate this trend because I don't like getting cooking odors all over the place. I'll probably just build a wall whenever I'd be forced to buy such a place.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#179

Post by ummonk »

If you're gonna use stainless steel frame, might as well use reinforced concrete with stainless steel rebar too, no?

Of course, if you want true longevity, carve out a cave in a hard rocky hillside. That'll last thousands of years.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#180

Post by avereveard »

rsync wrote: post #98

This is a very odd design document and it makes me think this author has thought a lot about materials and buildings but not actually built anything . The steel moment frame, to someone with shallow knowledge, sounds so strong and resilient . But in fact, a rigid steel structure is more vulnerable to seismic (and even wind) loads than wooden framing which can flex and move and dampen those loads naturally. The stainl…

> If I had an unlimited budget

at some point on the price scale you can just build a titanium cast for a house and pour molten rocks in, probably a basalt. what's the yield strength of igneous rocks? maybe the roof need to be arched.

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