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No Way to Grow Up

nytimes.com

351–360 of 714 posts

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#351

I agree that adults have failed kids during the pandemic, but the agenda that this article is pushing is deeply, deeply flawed. The consequences the pandemic is having on kids is not due to schools being closed, it's due to kids growing up in the middle of a society collapsing under the weight of a pandemic. To argue that we shouldn't have closed schools, or should have made things more normal for the kids is to say…

> kids growing up in the middle of a society collapsing under the weight of a pandemic Society is collapsing under the weight of our reaction to the pandemic, not under the weight of a pandemic itself. There is no reason why a pandemic that kills fewer than 1% of people would cause anything to collapse. (That's about how many people die every year anyway, of normal causes). > Fair would have been for everyone to do t…

> Society is collapsing under the weight of our reaction to the pandemic, not under the weight of a pandemic itself.

What restrictions? We've barely done anything to contain the pandemic. We had, what, a month or two of restaurant dining closed at best. The mildest possible hint of a suggestion that maybe you should cover your mouth instead of directly huffing air from strangers?

> There is no reason why a pandemic that kills fewer than 1% of people would cause anything to collapse. (That's about how many people die every year anyway, of normal causes).

This is completely wrong. For one thing, even at the best of times the death rate of covid is a bit over 1%, and the number was likely somewhat under-reported. The death rate is much worse when hospitals are overwhelmed (as they are just about everywhere now, and have been in large parts of the US for most of the pandemic).

And that's _only the excess deaths from covid_. There are also excess deaths from all of the other things people can't get treatment for, or can't get good treatment for. Injuries, cancers, heart attacks, and other diseases are going undignosed and untreated or undertreated due to the load that covid is imposing on the hospital. Someone need not die of covid in the hospital to kill someone else whose bed they were taking up.

And of course that says nothing about the number of people becoming disabled because of covid. We don't know yet exactly how many people are getting long-term disabilities because of covid, or how long long-term will be, but the numbers don't look good.

> The current variant spreading like wildfire in the US came from South Africa (or maybe Botswana). The previous one came from India. The original one came from China. Even if we had 100% compliance in the US with whatever measures you want, it wouldn't stop covid, unless we could somehow force everybody in the world to do the same thing, which is impossible.

For one thing, we don't actually know if that's where those variants came from. The countries that are doing a better job of sequencing infections and monitoring the course of the pandemic are more likely to spot a variant early. But let's set that aside for the moment. I agree that a zero-covid strategy relies on world-wide cooperation, but there are much better approaches that we could take than what we have been. A sensible approach to travel related quarantining rather than nonsensical travel bans would be a good start. Demonstrating leadership in how to handle a pandemic in general would be another. Contract tracing, regular testing, and better responses to localized outbreaks would all help. The US in particular is probably better positioned than a lot of the world to contain ongoing outbreaks to be more regional simply because of the size and low population density here.

> Nobody has ever satisfyingly explained to me how this meme of "if everybody did the right thing it would all be over by now" makes any sense. Australia, New Zealand, and China are not back to normal yet.

Even countries with better responses than the US are going to have imperfect responses, and people are still people everywhere you go. There's plenty of room to do better, but on average the places with a better response have had more time with lower levels of infection. There's no closing pandora's box now, and normal will have to include continually re-evaluating the situation and adapting, but we can have a better time with a better response.

That's the point of my original post too. Maybe nothing would have kept kids from having periods of remote schooling, and missing other social events (or, in places that have continued to have no restrictions, maybe nothing _should_ have actually justified a pro-covid attitude that's been adopted). Better planning and better responses, and more responsible behavior overall, could have given kids more certainty, more safe days in class, and a clearer understanding of how to live in the world as it exists today.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#352
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's intimidating to go places alone and try to make friends there, it's what a lot of us have had to do any time we moved away from our social groups.

Finding a new group of friends who disregard health experts isn't exactly a great long-term plan. It's amazing that everyone's responses are basically, "the answer is simple! we just completely ignore the experts! we've been doing it all along!" I'm wondering when even the experts start saying "Damn this isn't worth it". What year of masking, remote learning, social distancing, etc. do they start to give up too? 3 ye…

Have you considered that maybe at some point, especially 6+ months after a highly effective vaccine has been available to everyone that wants it, that people are going to want to go back to living their lives? Get vaccinated, get boosted, take precautions if it makes you feel better, but the show will go on.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound like you're describing a foreign country from my experiences in New York, Arizona, and Nevada. Why not move out of the Bay Area?

"Just move" is not actually a useful response to someone's regional concern.

His concern doesn't reflect reality in this region.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#354

[RANT] At this point I've lost faith in my generation, my parents' generation, and everything in between and outside of that. I don't care what your degree says or does not say. I don't care about your credentials. I don't care about your politics. Everyone has been wrong. MY YOUNG CHILDREN SHOULD NOT HAVE TO CONTINUE WEARING MASKS AT SCHOOL WHEN THEY ARE VACCINATED. That is no way to grow up indeed.

I'm fascinated by this kind of response from other parents. My kids don't really mind the masks. It's just not a big deal to them. I mean, I obviously hope we can go back to normal before too much longer, but the mask itself isn't actively harming them. On the other hand, not being able to interact with classmates during school-from-home last year... that had a big effect on their social lives. But now, they see and…

Well one my kids has had an open sore on his mouth for months because of the mask.

Im equally as fascinated by parents who find masking their children to be totally fine. They don’t really have a say in this and I don’t believe for one second that kids would rather wear a mask than not.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#355
post #34

When I was a kid there was a big earthquake where I lived and my life was disrupted for a few weeks. Many decades later I still have latent trauma from that incident. Children involved in situations like accidents, wars, disasters and abuse need years and sometimes lifelong therapy to deal with it. We are kidding ourselves if we think that the long list of behavioral changes we are starting to see in kids is simply a…

No doubt some are long term traumatized by this. But a brief look at history shows that such things happening during childhood are normal , not exceptional. If most people need therapy to get back to normal, the human race would have died out. In my grandparents' generation, it was normal for a family to lose a third of their children before adulthood. The US has had devastating epidemics before, like the 1918 flu, a…

> If most people need therapy to get back to normal, the human race would have died out.

I don't think "normal" and "human race died out" are the only options. Your grandparents' generation may not have ever had or gotten back to what we'd consider normal today.

We always hope to make the world a little better for our kids than it was for generations before. Our kids will grow into adults, and they'll find their normal. But how different will that be from a world in which there was no pandemic? I don't know the answer.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> kids with long covid ... physically disable them potentially for life At what point do we decide that totally evidence-free hysterical claims like this are as much misinformation as anti-vaxx posting is?

The clinical picture is still evolving. There is much less information than for adults, but here's the first google link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7927578/

> The clinical picture is still evolving. There is much less information than for adults

We're nearing 300,000,000 cases worldwide. How is it still an open question? Maybe the reason there's "much less information" is simply because kids are not (by and large) getting majorly sick from it.

If kids were dying from covid in any significant numbers, I have no doubt I'd be seeing the stories on CNN and everywhere else by now.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#357
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding a new group of friends who disregard health experts isn't exactly a great long-term plan. It's amazing that everyone's responses are basically, "the answer is simple! we just completely ignore the experts! we've been doing it all along!" I'm wondering when even the experts start saying "Damn this isn't worth it". What year of masking, remote learning, social distancing, etc. do they start to give up too? 3 ye…

Have you considered that maybe at some point, especially 6+ months after a highly effective vaccine has been available to everyone that wants it, that people are going to want to go back to living their lives? Get vaccinated, get boosted, take precautions if it makes you feel better, but the show will go on.

Who are we to make that decision? I'm not an immunologist or infectious disease expert, and I'm assuming you're not either.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#358
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Concerts, sporting events, parties of most sizes, crowded bars/clubs Here in Chicago all of these things have been on the table since early summer, albeit masked. Omicron has shut things down again to an extent, but I doubt that'll last through January.

It's been on the table since early summer in the Bay Area too. I have no idea what this dude is on about. There are more concerts and events than I remember there being in 2019 and they are frequently sold out.

Of course they're still around, legally. I said they're not really on the table because the vast majority of experts are still saying not to gather in large groups. You have to go out of your way to ignore those experts in order to go to these concerts and events.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#359
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are parents being expected to teach at all during remote education?

Because kids are the responsibility of their parents, and parents are not the responsibility of their kid (well, until those kids are adults themselves at least). Why would you expect a 5-year-old to take care of their adult parents? And why wouldn't you expect an adult parent to take care of their 5-year-old?

If it wasn’t clear, that was meant hyperbolically. Sometimes things aren’t always clear in text, so I removed it since it isn’t even important at all to my actual question.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#360
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises that left-leaning politicians and media were the most fervent advocates of school closures, because it has disproportionately affected kids from the poorest backgrounds. What I see around me is that educated couples invested the time to make up for the lack of school education (and were typically home working themselves), so those kids will probably do OK, other kids were left on their own all day…

Left leaning politicians were pushed by teachers unions whose job is to advocate for the safety of the teachers.

Left leaning politicians also send their kids to private schools which did not shut down.
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