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ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

reuters.com

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Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#191

Post by inglor_cz »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #60
lotsofpulp wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a reason to assume the ability to ramp up in WW2 has any bearing on the ability to ramp up an operation like ASML today? You cannot just throw any bodies at a problem like creating ASML. You have to throw very specific bodies with each one having at least a decade or more of very specific expertise (it seems like, based on the comments and articles I have read). That is just ASML, not even getting into the d…

Manhattan Project? That wasn't a "just throw bodies at it" either...

Manhattan Project would have taken longer without input from all the European scientists chased out of Europe by Nazis.

Fermi, Teller, Bohr, von Neumann, Bethe, Szilard, Einstein - not every one of them was directly involved, but they all moved to America and taught younger generations of American physicists.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#192

Post by CookiesNCream23 »

traceroute66 wrote: post #186
CookiesNCream23 wrote: post #180

I work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage plants. On top of that, we work with high pressure and high power systems. Fires have accounted for the most damage to fabs over the years; however, this situation is different. The site is not a fab, it is a ASML manufacturing plant. This plant does not produce…

> Downstream effects of this fire will reduce the uptime of the machines and the delivery of promised machines to our customers. Given that it is the factory acquired from Berlin Glas in 2020, surely its capacity would only "just" be coming online at ASML and they have pre-existing capacity elsewhere ?

Can't talk about that :)

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#193

Post by aemreunal »

traceroute66 wrote: post #186
CookiesNCream23 wrote: post #180

I work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage plants. On top of that, we work with high pressure and high power systems. Fires have accounted for the most damage to fabs over the years; however, this situation is different. The site is not a fab, it is a ASML manufacturing plant. This plant does not produce…

> Downstream effects of this fire will reduce the uptime of the machines and the delivery of promised machines to our customers. Given that it is the factory acquired from Berlin Glas in 2020, surely its capacity would only "just" be coming online at ASML and they have pre-existing capacity elsewhere ?

They may have sold that production with the assumption it'll come on, which will now be delayed.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#194

Post by Fnoord »

wumpus wrote: post #153

One of the fun parts of working in Silicon Valley is that there's... industrial stuff everywhere. At one office building, not only did we have the usual fire evacuation plan, but we had extra instructions because of one of our neighbors, who had storage tanks with the usual fab chemicals. Yow.

Yeah, that's not just in SV. Here in The Netherlands, you might have a neighbor who hosts illegal fireworks in their apartment/house. Some of that (e.g. 'cobra') is akin to having explosives. Which is illegal to have in your house, due to the safety concerns for other people.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#195

Post by quartesixte »

bakuninsbart wrote: post #138
unethical_ban wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earlier today I was thinking about this positively. None of my ideas are original, but some anti-corporatism thought struck a chord today. Why do we rely on dictatorships and unstable countries for critical infrastructure? Why do we rely on slave labor overseas for such basics as textiles when we could make it here? It isn't "markets" that are wrong altogether, but there is something destabilizing and unethical about…

While I don't subscribe to the neoliberal idea of globalization being great for the global poor, I think it is quite telling that very few countries managed to get rich purely through internal means. Barring a few minor exceptions, countries either became rich through exploitation of other countries (Western Europe, colonial nations and Japan), or by using global markets to drive growth through exports (SK, Taiwan, P…

To be honest, at least with SK, they in a way self-exploited themselves during the dictatorship eras.

Exporting materials (steel), industrial capacity (famously, container ships), labor (Saudi Arabian oilfield workers and nurses in Germany among others), and mercenaries (Vietnam War).

Wages from which were taken by the government and invested (via national monopolies such as Samsung and Hyundai) into more infrastructure growth. Which slowly led to the Korea of today. Add in a dash of democratization and you get the softpower exporting, shipbuilding, chip fabbing regional power today.

It’s an interesting case study into I guess so-called “benevolent dictatorships” that managed to democratize itself (very very violently by the way), and then kept its nationalistic spirit going to weather through an IMF Credit Crisis to become what it is today.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#196

Post by throwawaylinux »

sudosysgen wrote: post #184
throwawaylinux wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I didn't say China has done nothing impressive (although it's emissions intensity of manufacturing and other environmental and labor rights records are horrible, which takes a some of the shine off its manufacturing for me, but that blame is equally on western governments and corporations who conspired to circumvent the environmental and labor standards demanded by their populations by farming them out to total…

I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously. Nowhere in the world can match the efficiency of Chinese manufacturing. They can do more with less in a way no other country in the world can, which is the simple truth. Even countries with worse labour standards, even countries with worse environmental regulations (and there are dozens and dozens). This is simply a product of developing and inventing new ideas and technology, a…

You can't take me seriously about what? That Chinese manufacturing has very poor emissions intensity and other environmental problems, or other labor and environmental regulations? It has not been able to match other parts of the world in manufacturing when it comes to those metrics.

> This is simply a product of developing and inventing new ideas and technology,

"simply" (also using vast quantities of coal, poor working conditions and other air and water pollution regulations).

> and using them to produce trillions and trillions of dollars of wealth. If it was simply about poor labor rights and environmental regulations they wouldn't be where there are today,

I didn't say it was simple, you are the one who keeps trying to say it is simple. But they definitely achieve competitive advantages that way.

> as there is a large number of countries with much more permissive environments.

Non sequitur.

> Twenty years ago people said that it was all just because their wages are low.

Lots of people say lots of incorrect stuff all the time, not just 20 years ago. This isn't really an argument. Environmental concerns have been high on the radar for a long time.

> Now their wages are higher than several EU countries and almost all of South America, and they still are doing more with less. There is no other explanation, this is simply because they have expertise, ideas, and innovations that others countries don't or can't put into practice.

Their manufacturing industry overall is clearly extremely good in general. Not in all specifics (particularly high-tech sectors) like automotive, aerospace, silicon, etc etc, but as a whole of course they are major leaders in many types of manufacturing.

> The bite is absolutely matching the bark.

Absolutely not in terms of innovation and development of new technology and ideas across all areas.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#197

Post by hutzlibu »

baq wrote: post #139
jazzyjackson wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Found this on the wiki, quoting the rocket scientist John Drury Clark: > It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals—steel, copper, aluminum, etc.—because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride that protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminum keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no ch…

This is a quote from Ignition! - a very very very good book about liquid rocket fuels. PDF is available online after a quick google. A must read for anyone on HN - imagine what it’s like to be a rocket fuel hacker.

"imagine what it’s like to be a rocket fuel hacker."

I think there is a reason, there are not that many around. If you would apply the default computer safety mindset to rocket fuels ...

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#198

Post by quartesixte »

MathCodeLove wrote: post #111
unethical_ban wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earlier today I was thinking about this positively. None of my ideas are original, but some anti-corporatism thought struck a chord today. Why do we rely on dictatorships and unstable countries for critical infrastructure? Why do we rely on slave labor overseas for such basics as textiles when we could make it here? It isn't "markets" that are wrong altogether, but there is something destabilizing and unethical about…

You can choose to buy from companies who only operate domestically Why don't you? Why is it unethical to save a penny for a stockholder yet it isn't unethical for you to save a penny by buying foreign produced goods? Sure, there are many specific brands unavailable domestically, but you can find some variation of everything you need locally. Even if there are exceptions to that, I would bet you rarely choose to purch…

I work in manufacturing and even if any nation wanted to completely domesticate consumer goods, we’re still at the mercy of either raw materials being imported or industrial machines not being made domestically. At least, not the ones that produce the quality goods that we so demand.

Tim Cook famously said that Apple can’t move manufacturing to the US because the US does not have the industrial engineers needed to make and run those factories.

Ever see American Made on Netflix? Chinese industrial capacity, processes and standards are on some different level of refinement.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#199

Post by jhugo »

unethical_ban wrote: post #158
jhugo wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do we rely on slave labor overseas for such basics as textiles when we could make it here? Calling it slave labour is a great sound bite but glosses over the wide variety in working conditions "overseas", and the fact that trade has vastly improved conditions in many such "overseas" countries. I have broadly the opposite view about supply chains and globalisation; the inter-reliance of countries and the trade i…

Yes, good counterpoint. And to the other poster, yes, the EU was apparently designed with this point explicitly in mind. However, the EU countries are on the same order of magnitude of wealth. Is there any point at which we say "it is wrong to remove wealth from my country, put a fraction of it into working conditions unthinkable in my country, and let the owners of the means of production pocket the rest"? Shouldn't…

> Shouldn't we mandate US-like living conditions and safety regulations if we are going to ethically export labor?

To make that mandate at the beginning is simply to decide not to export labour, since the trade can't happen if you apply those conditions from the outset. That's worse for everybody: your t-shirt costs more, and the worker in Cambodia or Bangladesh goes back to subsistence farming.

The present system of international trade has delivered a marked improvement in living conditions for labour-exporting countries. It's always worthwhile to talk about how to make further improvement happen faster, but mandates aren't the solution — to pretend economic realities don't exist doesn't make them go away.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#200

Post by quartesixte »

hda2 wrote: post #81
chongli wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part is what to do with 90s-era tech when times are good? Nobody’s buying that old stuff (hobbyists aside). So then you just run these plants at a loss? I’d hate to be an engineer at one of those places. Seems like very soul-crushing work.

> So then you just run these plants at a loss? If there is no demand then yes, absolutely. It's normal for countries (inc. the US) to run and subsidize their infrastructure at a loss if it is critical to their national security.

This is what is often famously referred to as the military-industrial complex.

The US military has a large pool of mechanics and technicians they constantly train who then go on to private sector. Building things, and building things right, take a level of physical dexterity and mechanical intelligence that must be honed.

Ever see a machinist run a hand over a milled surface, call it out of tolerance by 0.005” and then the calipers confirm? You can’t learn that from a book that shit is straight just 25 years of looking and touching surfaces that smooth. Drilling straight holes into metal frames that bend and give is an art.

You can’t let that die. So the military funds shops everywhere to build widgets for the war machine to keep people employed and those skills alive in the event that when we do need tens of thousands of them at once, there are seasoned veterans ready to lead the way. And in the mean time, they make $150k a year running a small machine shop in Michigan subcontracting for Northrup or Lockheed or something.

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