Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 319 posts

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#71

Post by jazzyjackson »

Aerroon wrote: post #68
Bud wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chlorine trifluoride also sets fire to glass on contact. And asbestos. And tungsten. And titanium. And finally, people.

How do you store it?

Found this on the wiki, quoting the rocket scientist John Drury Clark:

> It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals—steel, copper, aluminum, etc.—because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride that protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminum keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#72

Post by chongli »

hda2 wrote: post #62

Like water, food, and electricity, electronics have become an integral part of life. Every single country that can afford to bootstrap their own semiconductor manufacturing infrastructure should be scrambling to do so. This infrastructure doesn't have to be cutting edge. Even 90s-era tech should be enough to cover a country's basic needs in case of a global collapse or shortage. It's insane for humanity to continue p…

The hard part is what to do with 90s-era tech when times are good? Nobody’s buying that old stuff (hobbyists aside). So then you just run these plants at a loss? I’d hate to be an engineer at one of those places. Seems like very soul-crushing work.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#73

Post by quickthrowman »

colechristensen wrote: post #33
tux3 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely no capacity to replace ASML on any sort of short timeframe. EUV step and scan systems are roughly the size of a bus, fractal system complexity and sophistication that rivals the LHC, and mirrors with a roughness two orders of magnitude finer than what the JWST space telescope has to work with (namely .2nm compared to 20nm). Please do not underestimate the difficulty of manufacturing EUV systems, A…

If the DoD got scared and threw a few billion at a competition to build this tech locally, I’m betting it could be done relatively quickly, but then what is and is not “quick” Just call the three or four companies you think would be the closest and tell them they’ll be competing to build the capacity paid for by the defense department.

I don’t think you understand, ASML does not have any competitors at its level. They are alone on the bleeding edge of semiconductor tooling.

If all it took was a few billion dollars, don’t you think someone would have already funded it and started a profitable company?

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#74

Post by hda2 »

whatshisface wrote: post #65
hda2 wrote: post #62

Like water, food, and electricity, electronics have become an integral part of life. Every single country that can afford to bootstrap their own semiconductor manufacturing infrastructure should be scrambling to do so. This infrastructure doesn't have to be cutting edge. Even 90s-era tech should be enough to cover a country's basic needs in case of a global collapse or shortage. It's insane for humanity to continue p…

I think you're leaving a few things off the list. Gasoline, steel, machine shops, chemical plants... by the time you added everything that could lead to crisis if it ran out or stopped working you'd be a proponent of the Juche Idea. ;)

Most countries I know of already consider power and basic manufacturing (chemical, construction) to be crucial, and do their best to secure their production or procurement.

My argument is that semiconductor manufacturing must also be added to that list. A natural disaster or a war between two countries shouldn't lead to wide-spread famine or throw humanity back into the dark ages.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#75

Post by harha »

sofixa wrote: post #69
harha wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the deal with moving to Berlin anyway? Infrastructure is pretty bad (try getting good internet or mobile reception, even as a business), as are labor and tax laws and the motivation of most employees is pretty low as a result (high security, limited mobility - need tenure to retain the security, low impact of actions - both under and over performing), additionally, everything is a bureaucratic nightmare, bette…

ASML didn't move to Berlin, they acquired a former supplier, Berliner Glass, which was founded there in 1952. Labour and tax laws can be an advantage (some people are more productive when not under stress, which is much more of a factor if you can get fired for whatever reason).

They could, but I think the German laws are way too complicated and limiting to serve their actual purpose.

For instance many tax breaks will only work if some very tight conditions are met, like spending a certain amount on something or if your home has an extra room to count for wfh. Labor laws and bureaucracy make it incredibly complicated for freelancers, so there may be many who remain miserable in their corporate jobs.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#76

Post by throwawaylinux »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #49
throwawaylinux wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well EUV alone cost many billions of dollars to develop. It's also not clear that China is particularly good at leading high tech innovation. If you just look at the dollars and cents, they should be inventing new technology at a similar rate as the US. Doesn't seem like they're pulling their weight.

"If you just look at the dollars and cents, they should be inventing new technology at a similar rate as the US" That's very debatable. Maybe you are taking all the improvements China has made in construction, manufacturing and nuclear industry, and assigning them an 'innovation value' of zero. Maybe you are assigning non-zero innovation to exploiters of gig economy like Deliveroo.

> That's very debatable. Maybe you are taking all the improvements China has made in construction, manufacturing and nuclear industry, and assigning them an 'innovation value' of zero.

I'm not.

> Maybe you are assigning non-zero innovation to exploiters of gig economy like Deliveroo.

Also no.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#77

Post by jazzyjackson »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #32
throwawaylinux wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well EUV alone cost many billions of dollars to develop. It's also not clear that China is particularly good at leading high tech innovation. If you just look at the dollars and cents, they should be inventing new technology at a similar rate as the US. Doesn't seem like they're pulling their weight.

They don’t have to lead though, just fast follow. Many companies were hit by digital trade secret theft that was sent to China, so they are more than capable of bypassing the billions of R&D by getting access to the designs and going from there with government backing.

Many companies sent their blueprints to China and asked them to find a cheaper way to build it, and so they did. The exclusivity guarantees must have been lost in translation.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#78

Post by vharuck »

chongli wrote: post #72
hda2 wrote: post #62

Like water, food, and electricity, electronics have become an integral part of life. Every single country that can afford to bootstrap their own semiconductor manufacturing infrastructure should be scrambling to do so. This infrastructure doesn't have to be cutting edge. Even 90s-era tech should be enough to cover a country's basic needs in case of a global collapse or shortage. It's insane for humanity to continue p…

The hard part is what to do with 90s-era tech when times are good? Nobody’s buying that old stuff (hobbyists aside). So then you just run these plants at a loss? I’d hate to be an engineer at one of those places. Seems like very soul-crushing work.

One option is government subsidies, like what's done for farms and military hardware. Just keep buying it up, even if it rots or rusts. The goal is to make sure those industries remain healthy and don't slip back in expertise.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#79

Post by chx »

kragen wrote: post #55
throwawaylinux wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well EUV alone cost many billions of dollars to develop. It's also not clear that China is particularly good at leading high tech innovation. If you just look at the dollars and cents, they should be inventing new technology at a similar rate as the US. Doesn't seem like they're pulling their weight.

This smear could not be further from the truth. China has singlehandedly (to the extent that a billion people can be considered a "single hand") dropped the cost of solar energy from five times as expensive as fossil fuels to half as expensive as fossil fuels in only ten years, an innovation that will probably stop global warming and usher in an unprecedented age of energy abundance starting about eight years from no…

No post body was provided.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#80

Post by throwawaylinux »

kragen wrote: post #55
throwawaylinux wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well EUV alone cost many billions of dollars to develop. It's also not clear that China is particularly good at leading high tech innovation. If you just look at the dollars and cents, they should be inventing new technology at a similar rate as the US. Doesn't seem like they're pulling their weight.

This smear could not be further from the truth. China has singlehandedly (to the extent that a billion people can be considered a "single hand") dropped the cost of solar energy from five times as expensive as fossil fuels to half as expensive as fossil fuels in only ten years, an innovation that will probably stop global warming and usher in an unprecedented age of energy abundance starting about eight years from no…

China has done a lot to reduce cost and increase efficiency of solar cells, not alone though. And I didn't say they make no innovations, clearly they do.
Post reply on HN