Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 319 posts

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#51

Post by kragen »

Ygg2 wrote: post #44
dathinab wrote: post #12

Berlin news (rbb) say that Many things are still unclear including: - how big the damage is - how long it takes to operate again - how it was possible to happen/how it happend The linked article basically says the same.

Doesn't litography use some pretty wild chemicals. Like Chlorine Trifloride? Thing that when burned emits hydrochloric acid and hydrofluoric acid. Aka thing that burns ashes. Again. I assume making those machines is pretty crazy as well.

Sometimes, yes. Interestingly these ridiculously reactive materials aren't the ones that tend to contaminate the environment most; they don't last long enough outside a carefully controlled lab. It's, surprisingly, the almost nontoxic materials like perchloroethylene that tend to cause big headaches, because they're unreactive enough to survive in the environment for many years.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#53

Post by Ygg2 »

kragen wrote: post #51
Ygg2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't litography use some pretty wild chemicals. Like Chlorine Trifloride? Thing that when burned emits hydrochloric acid and hydrofluoric acid. Aka thing that burns ashes. Again. I assume making those machines is pretty crazy as well.

Sometimes, yes. Interestingly these ridiculously reactive materials aren't the ones that tend to contaminate the environment most; they don't last long enough outside a carefully controlled lab. It's, surprisingly, the almost nontoxic materials like perchloroethylene that tend to cause big headaches, because they're unreactive enough to survive in the environment for many years.

Article mentioned fires. I remembered that ClF3 fires can't be extinguished. They need to burn out.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#54

Post by harha »

jbverschoor wrote: post #21

Tech giants seem to have fire problems in Germany lately

What's the deal with moving to Berlin anyway?

Infrastructure is pretty bad (try getting good internet or mobile reception, even as a business), as are labor and tax laws and the motivation of most employees is pretty low as a result (high security, limited mobility - need tenure to retain the security, low impact of actions - both under and over performing), additionally, everything is a bureaucratic nightmare, better get out the fax machine.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#55

Post by kragen »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #24
rjzzleep wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has been pouring high order of millions into domestic lithography. Eventually the market will shift. We're still a bit far away. Edit: funny that people here think that this is statement is somehow something that could be considered a contentious topic. semiengineering has a startup section with investments for people that are more interested in facts than emotions: https://semiengineering.com/startup-corner/

Well EUV alone cost many billions of dollars to develop. It's also not clear that China is particularly good at leading high tech innovation. If you just look at the dollars and cents, they should be inventing new technology at a similar rate as the US. Doesn't seem like they're pulling their weight.

This smear could not be further from the truth.

China has singlehandedly (to the extent that a billion people can be considered a "single hand") dropped the cost of solar energy from five times as expensive as fossil fuels to half as expensive as fossil fuels in only ten years, an innovation that will probably stop global warming and usher in an unprecedented age of energy abundance starting about eight years from now. And it's not just solar; Chinese-designed nuclear reactors are also starting to be exported around the world. JLCPCB has automated custom circuit-board assembly to the point where you can get prototypes in your hands for US$10, two orders of magnitude cheaper than previously. When covid hit China, before PCR tests and antibody tests, they haled people caught with fever into walk-in fever clinics where they got chest-only CT scans, and by July they had developed a vaccine and were vaccinating people who had to travel abroad, five months before any vaccines were approved in most other countries, including the US, Germany, the UK, and Russia. And obviously every electronic device you own is mostly made in China unless it's an antique.

Can you imagine an Englishman in World War II saying, "It's also not clear that the US is particularly good at leading high tech innovation. If you just look at the pounds and shillings, they should be inventing new technology at a similar rate as the UK. Doesn't seem like they're pulling their weight."?

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#56

Post by Ygg2 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #50
Ygg2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't litography use some pretty wild chemicals. Like Chlorine Trifloride? Thing that when burned emits hydrochloric acid and hydrofluoric acid. Aka thing that burns ashes. Again. I assume making those machines is pretty crazy as well.

I worked at a facility with experimental lithography machines. One of the nasties looked like water, but would pass through your skin and melt your bones. Fun.

That's wild. Something right out of the zone. Any idea what is it?

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#57

Post by Bud »

Ygg2 wrote: post #44
dathinab wrote: post #12

Berlin news (rbb) say that Many things are still unclear including: - how big the damage is - how long it takes to operate again - how it was possible to happen/how it happend The linked article basically says the same.

Doesn't litography use some pretty wild chemicals. Like Chlorine Trifloride? Thing that when burned emits hydrochloric acid and hydrofluoric acid. Aka thing that burns ashes. Again. I assume making those machines is pretty crazy as well.

Chlorine trifluoride also sets fire to glass on contact. And asbestos. And tungsten. And titanium. And finally, people.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#58

Post by User23 »

kragen wrote: post #51
Ygg2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't litography use some pretty wild chemicals. Like Chlorine Trifloride? Thing that when burned emits hydrochloric acid and hydrofluoric acid. Aka thing that burns ashes. Again. I assume making those machines is pretty crazy as well.

Sometimes, yes. Interestingly these ridiculously reactive materials aren't the ones that tend to contaminate the environment most; they don't last long enough outside a carefully controlled lab. It's, surprisingly, the almost nontoxic materials like perchloroethylene that tend to cause big headaches, because they're unreactive enough to survive in the environment for many years.

Elemental fluorine is nasty toxic, but it doesn’t really pollute the environment because it’s too busy oxidizing the first thing it finds and forming a never gonna let you go bond.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#59

Post by tyingq »

Spooky23 wrote: post #50
Ygg2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't litography use some pretty wild chemicals. Like Chlorine Trifloride? Thing that when burned emits hydrochloric acid and hydrofluoric acid. Aka thing that burns ashes. Again. I assume making those machines is pretty crazy as well.

I worked at a facility with experimental lithography machines. One of the nasties looked like water, but would pass through your skin and melt your bones. Fun.

Hydrofluoric acid, though I don't think it melts your bones in a dramatic/fast way. It seems to be partially so dangerous because it doesn't "burn" right away, and as you say, is absorbed quickly in skin. So you might not rinse it off quickly.

"Piranha solution" (sulfuric acid, water, and hydrogen peroxide) is closer to what tv/movies portray hydrofluoric acid being like. That is, being able to disappear a body in it.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#60

Post by AnimalMuppet »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #45
ianai wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, if the US wanted it done it could be done.

Is there a reason to assume the ability to ramp up in WW2 has any bearing on the ability to ramp up an operation like ASML today? You cannot just throw any bodies at a problem like creating ASML. You have to throw very specific bodies with each one having at least a decade or more of very specific expertise (it seems like, based on the comments and articles I have read). That is just ASML, not even getting into the d…

Manhattan Project? That wasn't a "just throw bodies at it" either...
Post reply on HN