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Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#141

Post by ethbr0 »

r_singh wrote: post #14

I think the internet (and its tools) started off with the intention of making the lives of users easier as compared to the alternatives. However, as the internet became mainstream and competitive, more successful players realized that they can employ dark patterns to increase their revenue by taking advantage of users (lock-in, difficulty unsubscribing, making cloud accounts mandatory, etc). It's 2022 and I think all…

> growth at all and any cost

This is 100% the root cause.

Without exponential growth targets, almost all the ills mentioned wouldn't have been required.

And specifically, without exponential growth targets for companies with market cap already above $1T.

I'm convinced we'd be living in a better world if MAMAA would have said "Okay, our core business is mature. We're going to run it as a cash printing machine but with lower growth. If you want growth, here are companies we're spinning off."

Unfortunately, the reality of the software dev and infrastructure economies probably requires halo behemoths. For the former, so they can be compensated in equity, and the latter, because there's only enough demand for a few at minimal-cost-per-unit scale.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#142

Post by AstralStorm »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #128
mschuster91 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was not the users. Microsoft's Windows Mobile / Windows Phone and Nokia's Symbian completely failed to keep up with new innovations, which was the real problem. Windows Mobile was a barely consumer-friendly version of Windows CE with a truckload of vendor-specific implementations (which made for a very inconsistent user experience) and the abomination called Windows Phone was completely incompatible on the app sid…

Very concise; and that's pretty much the way I remember it too. Maybe the most remarkable part of all, that had nothing to do with corporate behemoths (AFAIK), was the speed with which society pivoted to embrace the smart phone (specifically, the internet more generally). We live in a completely different world than we did just one decade ago. But I feel a bit like the OP. Soon I may just grab some hardtack, my muzzl…

Don't worry, the tax men will find you and force you to file the taxes on paper. Or maybe even electronically.

I presume your beavers also come with healthcare, and the stores where you'd buy anything will still take cash.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#143

Post by JKCalhoun »

kgeist wrote: post #66
tluyben2 wrote: post #7

Not a main factor but a factor is 'always the latest tech' issue. Most banks and airlines I use rewrote their perfectly fine and fast sites and apps to reactjs and now they seriously suck. This is not the fault of react but more of this idea of tech people that everything has to be new which means we don't have 10+ year experience in it and the results just take more work to get right (despite what everyone says here…

>Most banks and airlines I use rewrote their perfectly fine and fast sites and apps to reactjs and now they seriously suck. This is not the fault of react but more of this idea of tech people that everything has to be new. I doubt they rewrote it just for the sake of rewriting it in a new framework, it costs money for no benefit. What's more likely, which I have witnessed multiple times, is that the original codebase…

Why does it seem (I'm not a backend engineer) that a company moves off of one technical-debt ridden backend to another, even bigger, more complex framework for their backend.

It's like we're in a downward tech-debt spiral.

Is it going to take an Ever-Given-like or Covid-like disruption of e-commerce that shuts down society to cause us to wake up and take this seriously? (Or have government step in and set standards and requirements for e-commerce.)

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#144

Post by jonnelafin »

nuclx wrote: post #118

I recently tried to backup my Google Authenticator setup from my smartphone. It's possible to export all secret keys to another smartphone using a QR code, however taking a screenshot is prevented. So how am I supposed to protect myself against device loss or corruption, if I don't have another smartphone to use for the backup (other than taking a picture of the QR code)?

This is something I don't understand about Google authenticator. I lost my device once and haven't used the app since, since I lost all of my otp keys.

Good alternatives include andOTP (json file backup, plain or encrypted with password / pgp key) and Aegis (json or txt)

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#145

Post by Ensorceled »

ratww wrote: post #123
Ensorceled wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. This is an intensely user hostile view point, ironically enough. "The dark patterns being foisted upon the average user are their own fault, they deserve what they get" In fact, I think this attitude is how the developers and product managers responsible for this stuff sleep at night, "these people deserve this for their moral failing…

I don't think anyone is directly blaming the users here. It is just a fact of life that a sizeable portion of users "accept" dark patterns, and PMs consider that as a sign of success. However I strongly doubt users are doing it by choice. IMO it's actually because of lack of choices, lack of knowledge or learned helplessness. That might be controversial, but to me the point is that A/B tests and KPIs are the wrong in…

> I don't think anyone is directly blaming the users here.

The comment I'm replying to is LITERALLY blaming "normal users" for these problems.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#146

Post by antocv »

bayindirh wrote: post #120
antocv wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> normal users have no choice on the matter. The choice to not use shit software is easier than going on a strike and demanding 8h work day instead of 14h. Which our ancestors also did, some died for the cause. I for one, do not use and have not used and especially not payed for user-hostile software, beginning since 2000. It is possible, you dont really have to accept shit or keep on using shit. Everytime that click…

Let's consider a basic example: How can you justify not using Microsoft Office? Yes LibreOffice is there and works 95% of the time, but the remaining 5% are not completely useless parts of the software. It's same for most of the user-hostile software. Alternatives are not as intuitive, easy to use, or easy to find. Also, free software is not guaranteed to be sustained or be in front of the pack. I use Linux, and free…

> How can you justify not using Microsoft Office?

I never had to justify it, nobody forced me or expected me to be using Office, they expected me to deliver a thesis or other document. When there was the "5% expectation", kindly decline, uninstall.

The road I picked, was not always success or easy, I got failed in high school "informatics" class because I could not show that I could use Office. Twice. I refused to learn Office because I had already learned to produce documents and presentations (websites) with a computer using free open source software.

> Alternatives are not as intuitive, easy to use, or easy to find.

Whats ease is what you have learned. Had you began with Linux since 1999 you would not even know how to do anything on Windows or MacOSX. I literlaly cant even scroll or type on a collegues macbook or find my way around anything. Very hard to use, not intuitive.

The "easy to use intuitive" eventually becomes the dark UX hell it is today, a slow descent. If you accept the software will think for you, well it will. Now you dont have to think, youre not in control, just enjoy the UX dark patterns and ads.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#147

Post by AstralStorm »

laurent92 wrote: post #100
antocv wrote: post #22

Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. Nobody is forced to continue using dark-pattern software, nobody was forced to use Apple and tie their credit-card to their "apple cloud account", yet normal users dont see a problem with it at all and just continue even paying for software which is hostile to them and their interests. Your question is like, "Why does DRM exist it is ac…

> and just continue even paying for software which is hostile to them I went Apple precisely because it was not hostile at all compared to Windows and Google’s forest of adware. The minute you give me a non-user hostile OS (phone or desktop), I’ll PAY $300/year for it. But even Ubuntu returned Amazon results when I searched the local application (Don’t get me started on technicalities of “But maybe you want your star…

Yes, blame the one law that attempts to give people a modicum of privacy, and not the developers really wanting you to click through and press accept all for income.

The problem with beating dark patterns there specifically is the sheer number of them...

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#148

Post by Damogran6 »

antocv wrote: post #22

Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. Nobody is forced to continue using dark-pattern software, nobody was forced to use Apple and tie their credit-card to their "apple cloud account", yet normal users dont see a problem with it at all and just continue even paying for software which is hostile to them and their interests. Your question is like, "Why does DRM exist it is ac…

Not sure why you brought Apple into this, while yes, their walled garden is very pretty, the experience of them extracting money out of your accounts is as friction free as it gets.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#149

Post by antihero »

r_singh wrote: post #14

I think the internet (and its tools) started off with the intention of making the lives of users easier as compared to the alternatives. However, as the internet became mainstream and competitive, more successful players realized that they can employ dark patterns to increase their revenue by taking advantage of users (lock-in, difficulty unsubscribing, making cloud accounts mandatory, etc). It's 2022 and I think all…

Can there be a way for capitalism to work highly efficiently and not in a hostile, adversarial manner, in some post-scarcity environment? Or will it always require scarcity in order to function or develop things?

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#150

Post by AstralStorm »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #137
r_singh wrote: post #14

I think the internet (and its tools) started off with the intention of making the lives of users easier as compared to the alternatives. However, as the internet became mainstream and competitive, more successful players realized that they can employ dark patterns to increase their revenue by taking advantage of users (lock-in, difficulty unsubscribing, making cloud accounts mandatory, etc). It's 2022 and I think all…

> Who do I think is to blame? Investors of all kinds. They are making it harder for entrepreneurs who care about their customers to stay in business by throwing money and exploiting consumers weakness for deals/freebies. I'm not sure. It might also be the opposite: this might be the precise time for a new business that can cut out all the bullshit and give the users what they want. It's not just the HN crowd that is…

Good luck getting the advertising bandwidth to grow...
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