Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 383 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#121

Post by danparsonson »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #15
fxtentacle wrote: post #12

I think it's mainly your last reason. After the founders have cashed out, there's nobody left to care about user experience, because by then, most things are run by MBAs as dictated by shareholders. And shareholders don't care who suffers. They care purely about profits. The solution is to introduce laws to reign in "profits at the expense of others". When chemical companies were polluting the ground (superfund sites…

I'd say it is more because UX has shifted to acquiring customers at all costs, even if it means constantly annoying your current users. Every time I have to hunt for the "log in with an existing account" button (after mistakenly trying to login to what turns out to be the sign-up form) I want to punch a "UX "expert" in the face so hard it knocks the shitty dye job off their side-shave hairdo.

UX experts don't want to acquire customers at all costs; those mandates come from management, whose requirements the UX experts are required to fulfil. You should be concerned about managers' haircuts instead.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#122

Post by TacticalCoder »

antocv wrote: post #22

Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. Nobody is forced to continue using dark-pattern software, nobody was forced to use Apple and tie their credit-card to their "apple cloud account", yet normal users dont see a problem with it at all and just continue even paying for software which is hostile to them and their interests. Your question is like, "Why does DRM exist it is ac…

> Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing.

It's because it's the same kind of users that tolerated such bullshit on TV 20 years ago: 5 ads or more over a 30 minutes show.

The truth is: most people are brainlessly consuming any media (be it TV or the Internet or the latest crappy auto-tuned pop song) and are wandering hyperconsumerists souls.

20 years ago it was more complicated to go on the Internet, so your average "I'll sit in front of TV and tolerate 5 ads over my 30 minutes show" wasn't on the Internet. It's that simple.

It takes time and half a brain to not get abused by all these companies. People don't want to spend the time and certainly don't have half a brain.

The Internet adapted itself to the masses.

That'd be my rant.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#123

Post by ratww »

Ensorceled wrote: post #102
antocv wrote: post #22

Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. Nobody is forced to continue using dark-pattern software, nobody was forced to use Apple and tie their credit-card to their "apple cloud account", yet normal users dont see a problem with it at all and just continue even paying for software which is hostile to them and their interests. Your question is like, "Why does DRM exist it is ac…

> Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. This is an intensely user hostile view point, ironically enough. "The dark patterns being foisted upon the average user are their own fault, they deserve what they get" In fact, I think this attitude is how the developers and product managers responsible for this stuff sleep at night, "these people deserve this for their moral failing…

I don't think anyone is directly blaming the users here.

It is just a fact of life that a sizeable portion of users "accept" dark patterns, and PMs consider that as a sign of success.

However I strongly doubt users are doing it by choice. IMO it's actually because of lack of choices, lack of knowledge or learned helplessness.

That might be controversial, but to me the point is that A/B tests and KPIs are the wrong incentives, not that users are stupid.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#124

Post by nkrisc »

antocv wrote: post #110
Ensorceled wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. This is an intensely user hostile view point, ironically enough. "The dark patterns being foisted upon the average user are their own fault, they deserve what they get" In fact, I think this attitude is how the developers and product managers responsible for this stuff sleep at night, "these people deserve this for their moral failing…

Ironically the "my mom" and "but my grandparents" angle is what has always been used to dumb down and introduce user-hostile patterns. Surprise, after 20 years the developers and managers assume they are building software for retarded un-learnable "grandparents and mothers", the end result is well stupid software.

If your user base is large enough, some significant faction of your users are in fact “retarded un-learnable,” though I might have put it more delicately.

And when there’s money involved, there’s always incentive to cater to your lowest common denominator user.

I’ve watched many in-person and remote use testing sessions, some people just have no clue how to use technology, yet you still have to design apps and websites for them to use. These people aren’t necessarily dumb or anything like that, they just don’t understand technology.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#125

Post by deepstack »

tluyben2 wrote: post #7

Not a main factor but a factor is 'always the latest tech' issue. Most banks and airlines I use rewrote their perfectly fine and fast sites and apps to reactjs and now they seriously suck. This is not the fault of react but more of this idea of tech people that everything has to be new which means we don't have 10+ year experience in it and the results just take more work to get right (despite what everyone says here…

> Not a main factor but a factor is 'always the latest tech' issue. Most banks and airlines I use rewrote their perfectly fine and fast sites and apps to reactjs and now they seriously suck.

overusage of SPA of SPA framework (Next.js etc) has caused a lot of problem for users who are used using browser, which is most of web users. It breaks open the link in another tab, back/forward flow. It is not SPA is bad, however if you chose to go that route then design the app with screen size mind and you got think it as an Application instead of a web page.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#126

Post by thizzbuzz »

antocv wrote: post #103
Mordisquitos wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is forced to continue using dark-pattern software, nobody was forced to use Apple and tie their credit-card to their "apple cloud account", yet normal users dont see a problem with it at all and just continue even paying for software which is hostile to them and their interests. While technically true in terms of theoretical modelling of a market economy, I don't think that's a fair diagnosis in practice. We…

> normal users have no choice on the matter. The choice to not use shit software is easier than going on a strike and demanding 8h work day instead of 14h. Which our ancestors also did, some died for the cause. I for one, do not use and have not used and especially not payed for user-hostile software, beginning since 2000. It is possible, you dont really have to accept shit or keep on using shit. Everytime that click…

No post body was provided.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#127

Post by AstralStorm »

antocv wrote: post #110
Ensorceled wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. This is an intensely user hostile view point, ironically enough. "The dark patterns being foisted upon the average user are their own fault, they deserve what they get" In fact, I think this attitude is how the developers and product managers responsible for this stuff sleep at night, "these people deserve this for their moral failing…

Ironically the "my mom" and "but my grandparents" angle is what has always been used to dumb down and introduce user-hostile patterns. Surprise, after 20 years the developers and managers assume they are building software for retarded un-learnable "grandparents and mothers", the end result is well stupid software.

Most of the dark patterns are not due to dumbing down UI. They're either because nothing better is available (security), income would be reduced (ads, cookie warnings, software is deliberately crippled for non-professional versions), development is done by lowest bidder.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#128

Post by JKCalhoun »

mschuster91 wrote: post #89
chii wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but uses voted with their wallets - there have been many smartphone manufacturers, but they fell one by one to user's choices to flock to the iphone (and i guess android).

It was not the users. Microsoft's Windows Mobile / Windows Phone and Nokia's Symbian completely failed to keep up with new innovations, which was the real problem. Windows Mobile was a barely consumer-friendly version of Windows CE with a truckload of vendor-specific implementations (which made for a very inconsistent user experience) and the abomination called Windows Phone was completely incompatible on the app sid…

Very concise; and that's pretty much the way I remember it too.

Maybe the most remarkable part of all, that had nothing to do with corporate behemoths (AFAIK), was the speed with which society pivoted to embrace the smart phone (specifically, the internet more generally).

We live in a completely different world than we did just one decade ago.

But I feel a bit like the OP. Soon I may just grab some hardtack, my muzzleloader and head out to the mountains and spend the next decade collecting beaver pelts. Cookie settings be damned.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#130

Post by cbozeman »

noiwillnot wrote: post #28
antocv wrote: post #22

Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. Nobody is forced to continue using dark-pattern software, nobody was forced to use Apple and tie their credit-card to their "apple cloud account", yet normal users dont see a problem with it at all and just continue even paying for software which is hostile to them and their interests. Your question is like, "Why does DRM exist it is ac…

> even paying for software which is hostile to them and their interests Consumers have been sold a dream, and after the tech advances and sweatshoping can't go farther, they would rather eat skimpflation day after day than pay more. This is most evident online, where a good chunk of the population expect everything to be free.

People only expect things to be free because they're not being told / educated on the actual cost of their "free" service.

I wonder how many people over the past 15 or so years have been denied a job because a tech-savvy HR person combed through social media / forum profiles and read things they didn't like? And if you think that wasn't happening then, you're out of your mind. This was happening in World of Warcraft guilds, for God's sakes... players with "wrong" opinions were kept out of certain guilds by """""""well-meaning""""""" officers of those guilds, so I assure you, it was happening in the real world.

But today, as then, you never knew about it, so you had no knowledge that your employment was denied because most American states are at-will and it's not like HR would have said you have a "problematic" stance regarding .

This is but one small example of the "progress" we've seen on the "modern web".

Post reply on HN