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The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)

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Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)

#211
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix & Spotify are currently worth $275bn & $45bn. I think it's quite unlikely that such results would be achieved with a pay-x-get-y store model. Even Disney & Universal, themselves enormously valuable companies, are greedily eying the platform model. It has everything they want. Recurring revenues. Content pushing abilities, which is usually the most strategically important asset. Platform monopoly potential, wh…

Netflix and Spotify don't model their service as a purchase, though. Netflix in particular is very clearly still shaped like a rental with their DVD service. I think of them as more convenient radio and TV: I can choose the thing I want, but I don't expect that it's portable. This is sharply contrasted with the so-called "purchase" model of Amazon or iTunes video, and even more with the way physical media works these…

True, but I think the parents point was that "buying" media was essentially dying anyway. Disney will still sell you a BluRay of Frozen if you want it, but they really want to sell you 65 dollars a year Disney+.

Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)

#212
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try to be the Devil's advocate. The scarse resource is not that song or that movie. It's the time of the people that created that song and that movie. That's is part of the cost of production. This is similar to there are millions of houses but only a few in the most scenic places. Want one of them, pay more. It could be the same for the most popular songs and movies. The time of their creators is more valuable tha…

> The scarse resource is not that song or that movie. It's the time of the people that created that song and that movie. That's is part of the cost of production. That's not really valid, though. Time is not the thing being exchanged -- it's impossible to do that -- so isn't a resource, scarce or otherwise, in the sense we mean. On top of that, the previous commenter made an error -- property rights aren't a solution…

Time can in fact be exchanged. For example, jail -- some action is traded for a timeout from society. Also, learning is a time-based process to replace entropy with reason, increasing resources from scarcity.

Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)

#213
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your use of scare quotes on plain self-evident terms kinda makes me think this is going to be entirely pointless, but here goes nothing. Do you understand that your being more or less content with the results of a deal does not have a bearing on how good, or decent, or moral, the system overarching that deal is? Tons of people seem more or less into Nestlé products despite their long track record of profiting from sl…

FWIW, it seems like the parent comment was just quoting you, not using scare quotes. I didn’t find your use of the words particularly self-evident, it might be worth patiently explaining what you meant rather than attacking. Parent’s valid and legitimate point is that if nobody pays for the content then it’s not a viable business model and it won’t get made in the first place. You can’t pirate a movie that doesn’t ex…

At least according to their own accounting, movies lose otherwise hilarious amounts of money all the time and they seem to still exist somehow.

"Piracy", which in reality is probably better called "online jaywalking" as it, too, is a made up faux-pas created so as to allow a couple soulless drones to make more money, hasn't to date represented an obstacle to content creation, they still happily churn products all the time, so I don't see any reason to think it will become an existential threat to the studio suits any time soon.

And maybe it should. Which is kind of core to the whole debate; is it actually good to anyone in any way to have a business based around forbidding free access to easily duplicable cultural products? Should such a thing even be allowed to thrive?

Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)

#214
post #54

>> The purpose of DRM is to give content providers leverage against creators of playback devices. This is a good spot to place the pin. The "theological" view is that (1) copyright is a moral right. (2) The Law just protects right against wrong, and(3) economic side effects of laws are incidental. Real life is a lot less naive, so to speak. The commercial intellectual property concerns at stake are are record labels,…

> DRM is, IMO, and industrial policy […] Negotiating the leverage party type X has over Y is always a key feature of such policies.

I like this take from a high level because it’s true. But, DRM is also an industrial technical attempt to enforce copyrights, not primarily against an industrial party, but primarily against consumers. Copyright law itself is a ‘rights management’ system, it just isn’t targeted at digital assets, and the truth is that copyright law doesn’t come with built-in or automatic enforcement, and a large number of consumers and businesses are perfectly content to ignore the law and consume/copy/distribute without permission or payment.

Let’s momentarily ignore the fact that a: many DRM implementations overstep copyright and prevent some kinds of consumption that are legal under copyright law, and b: many DRM implementations are technically bad and make some kinds of legal and legitimate consumption difficult, annoying or inconvenient.

It doesn’t seem like the author’s claim is correct or justified that DRM gives content creators leverage over playback device manufacturers. Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but it seems like the claim is backwards and inside-out.

DRM is a symptom of the existing leverage, it isn’t the cause. DVD player makers reluctantly put DRM in because they’ve been asked/forced to, because the MPAA and licensing groups already have leverage, not because DRM itself is bestowing more leverage. The very control and leverage that content makers want over playback manufacturers is the ability to force them to implement DRM!

Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this metaphor, but it breaks down in one aspect: the notion that it’s akin to eating junk vs healthy. At the end of the day I can hunt around and curate the perfect library of movies and shows, but I can also find plenty of good content on streaming platforms. It’s not like I’m eating empty calories at the end of the day.

I'd go out on a limb and say if you're watching reality TV shows like Housewives, Kardashians, Bachelor/ette, etc, then you are very much eating empty calories. But it's your body, and you can do with it whatever you like. Just be honest about what you are consuming.

Huh? How was that the implication?

Netflix has reality tv, but that doesn’t mean you’re watching reality tv on Netflix by default.

Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree with you that that all suck, and the quality of Netflix has certainly gone downhill. But you pretty much answered your own question. The platforms don’t have giant catalogs of evergreen & niche content, because that is extremely expensive to license. That’s not really a discovery problem, though. The trade off is of course, the old buying/renting model. But that’s oriented much more towards the enthusia…

The evergreen titles are usually the back catalog of the various studios. However, since all of the various studios seem to be creating their own streaming service, I can see how Netflix might be short on that content. However, finding these titles on the various studio services is also not as easy to discover. Mainly because these nascent services know they have to get their A-list content out first to attract users…

Yeah it’s a content ownership and licensing problem more than anything else.

Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)

#217
post #212
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The scarse resource is not that song or that movie. It's the time of the people that created that song and that movie. That's is part of the cost of production. That's not really valid, though. Time is not the thing being exchanged -- it's impossible to do that -- so isn't a resource, scarce or otherwise, in the sense we mean. On top of that, the previous commenter made an error -- property rights aren't a solution…

Time can in fact be exchanged. For example, jail -- some action is traded for a timeout from society. Also, learning is a time-based process to replace entropy with reason, increasing resources from scarcity.

Time is a consumable. It is not infinite, and it is unique to each individual.

We do not "trade" time in jail between society and an individual. We deny certain freedoms for a period of time. There is no economic equivalent when it comes to time.

Learning is a process that consumes time now for improved capability or efficiency in the future.

Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)

#218
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought this was true until I visited an old friend in a trailer park, of which their family would borrow DVDs written with pirated movies. There were many reasons why. No internet, too expensive, no blu-ray player, etc. It was amazing how they could just put in a DVD, and instantly movie for their children. These kids had rarely ever seen an ad on TV in their life. The people who made the disks got paid, too. Mark…

> The people who made the disks got paid, too. Interesting point. Did the people who made the content get paid too? And is the value of the DVD in the physical object or the content?

> Did the people who made the content get paid too?

Usually yes, because those would be the actors/cameramen/directors/editors/etc who would be paid for their work before the finished work then would be sold on to consumers. The question here is really "Did the people who fronted the money for the content get paid?" For simplicity I'm ignoring royalties here.

> And is the value of the DVD in the physical object or the content?

If we agree that copies of digital content are zero-cost, then the monetary value of the DVD is in the physical object.

Obviously that's only half the argument because nobody's watching blank DVDs.

But how do we fairly compensate the group that fronts the money for the content to be created? IMO, this is the genius of crowdfunding and why I'm bullish about it being the economic future of content. If a content creator can convince enough people to give them money to make something, then there is nobody who needs to profit from distribution. The content is fully paid-for up-front.

It's also not a new idea. Rich patrons funded works of art in the Renaissance. Rights management would have actually been counterproductive because the point of the art was the aggrandizement of the patron.

Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)

#219
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, it seems like the parent comment was just quoting you, not using scare quotes. I didn’t find your use of the words particularly self-evident, it might be worth patiently explaining what you meant rather than attacking. Parent’s valid and legitimate point is that if nobody pays for the content then it’s not a viable business model and it won’t get made in the first place. You can’t pirate a movie that doesn’t ex…

At least according to their own accounting, movies lose otherwise hilarious amounts of money all the time and they seem to still exist somehow. "Piracy", which in reality is probably better called "online jaywalking" as it, too, is a made up faux-pas created so as to allow a couple soulless drones to make more money, hasn't to date represented an obstacle to content creation, they still happily churn products all the…

Easily duplicable cultural products? You’re suggesting that you should be able to take something someone else made because it’s easy to do? It would be easy to steal your computer from you — should that make it legal for me to do so? You think movies should become historic cultural relics with free access to all whenever they are popular? If your wish came true, how exactly would the movie’s creation get funded in the first place? Movies often costs tens to hundreds of millions to produce, and they only take on that level of risk because of the financial return of people who pay to watch them. How do you think that would work if movies were free to everyone?

Do you have a job? Do you work for a company that makes money? Would you be okay with the product you’re working on being taken for free by people who insist they shouldn’t have to pay for it?

Your language feels really very hyperbolic to me. There are many real people with real jobs trying to make livings, even if the corporations they work for are greedy. DRM can indeed be shitty and it often oversteps copyright, but we can ignore DRM here because the argument you’re actually making is one against respecting copyright law and against respecting artists.

> is it actually good to anyone in any way to have a business based around forbidding free access to easily duplicable cultural products? Should such a thing even be allowed to thrive?

Yes. The answer is yes, without question. This has been debated by scholars and lawmakers and artists and business people for hundreds of years, and we have a compendium of laws that protect the people who make content precisely because it does, in fact, do them some good.

See Chesterton’s Fence: you don’t get to nuke the existing system until you actually understand why it’s there and how it got there. If you believe it serves zero people but still manages to exist, that means that your belief is wrong and you need to do some research.

The biggest problem with your argument is you’re blindly focused on the execs and profits of only the very largest media conglomerates, and you’re ignoring not only the tens of thousands of artists they employ, but you’re also ignoring all smaller businesses that aren’t making enormous profits and can’t afford to give away their content for free.

> movies lose otherwise hilarious amounts of money all the time and they seem to still exist somehow.

The amount of money someone makes is not any of your business, and it does not justify stealing the things they make without their permission. Copyright law can and does apply even to works that don’t cost money, and it also applies equally when someone’s enjoying handsome profits. You are not legally invited to copy anything based on someone else’s income.

Studios sometimes do lose money on movies and they survive because they make multiple movies. Studios also sometimes report misleading sales figures. I’ve worked in films and games as an artist, and watched studios do “creative accounting”. Reports of losses don’t prove anything, and don’t justify breaking copyright law.

Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)

#220
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People will Pirate before they do this.

Disagree. Turning subscriptions on/off (assuming that doesn't require phoning in) seems much easier to the layperson than figuring out how to torrent something without getting viruses and/or copyright strikes.

Remembering to turn subscriptions on and off is where the pain will lie
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