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Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex [pdf]

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Re: Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex [pdf]

#191
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we would be more in agreement if "saturated" was replaced with dispersed or diffused?

No because there isn't evidence myocarditis occurs due to the vaccine acting systemically and getting uptaken by cardiac tissue.

"Moderna's (MRNA.O) COVID-19 vaccine is up to four times more likely to cause inflammation of the heart muscle, a very rare side effect, than its rival vaccine from Pfizer-BioNTech (PFE.N)"

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...

Re: Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex [pdf]

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The viral load in vaccinated infections has been demonstrated to be the same as unvaccinated infections in multiple studies now. And a perfect example is here in Ontario where 80% of the cases are in vaccinated individuals even though 77% of the population is actually vaccinated. The shots might be helpful as a potential severe symptom mitigator which wanes but it should never have been called a "vaccine" as it neith…

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... positive -> vax infections 1/3 less likely than positive -> unvax - seems like it did prevent (some) infection for Delta at least.

This study has several issues which are rightly pointed out by the author:

> Owing to the small sample size, the authors were not able to establish the vaccine effectiveness against asymptomatic infections versus symptomatic infections. This limitation together with the unconfirmed source of transmission in many of these index-contact pairs, suggests that the low SAR reported here should be interpreted with caution.

> this study unfortunately also highlights that the vaccine effect on reducing transmission is minimal in the context of delta variant circulation.

> They report that peak viral loads showed a faster decline in vaccinated compared with unvaccinated people, although peak viral loads were similar for unvaccinated and vaccinated people.

> Time since vaccination in fully vaccination contacts was longer for those infected than those uninfected, suggesting that waning of protection might have occurred over time, although teasing out general waning versus reduced vaccine effectiveness due to delta is challenging owing to so many confounding factors.

The study is meaningless without disclosing how long after the vaccination is he study done. While the study does mention waning effectiveness, it doesn’t mention (as far as I can find) how long after the vaccination did they do the sampling.

Other studies show that in the first 2 months, the breakthrough is less likely and viral load is less but after that, the breakthroughs become more common and by 4-6 months, the viral load becomes the same.

This is observable in my province here in Canada where vast majority of the vaccinations occurred after June 10th (we had under 10% vaccination till June 10). So in the first few months of the honeymoon period, breakthroughs were less common. However after 3-4 months, they became more and more common.

And now that omicron is here, it’s become wildly common. While only 77% of Ontario population is vaccinated, 80% of cases are fully vaccinated.

Another thing to mention is that the study doesn’t mention the age, comirbidiies and obesity level of the individuals. It’s shown in other studies that older people, obese and those with comorbidities have higher viral loads and shed the virus for longer. And the effectiveness also wanes quicker in these groups along with in men. So there are too many variables.

These shots should never have been labelled a vaccine based on these factors.

Re: Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex [pdf]

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence that the "vaccine only works for a couple of months". The vaccine has continued to show efficacy against hospitalization and death (severe covid) even as there has been some waning in infection immunity over a period of multiple months (more than 2 or a couple months though). See e.g. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7049a2.htm "During February 1–September 30, 2021, mRNA vaccine effective…

WTF - then why are "booster shots" needed? In my country they are moving towards recommending them after three months already. I don't have a English language resource ready, but this article in a renowned German science magazine shows protection against severe illness is drastically reduced after six months for the current vaccines: https://www.spektrum.de/news/wie-lange-schuetzt-der-impfstof... For example from the…

I cannot read German but the paper the article references is in English here https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410

“ The effectiveness against severe illness seems to remain high through 9 months, although not for men, older frail individuals, and individuals with comorbidities. This strengthens the evidence-based rationale for administration of a third booster dose.”

Possible difference between the Swedish study and the CDC - time period comparison of 4 months (120 days) vs 9 months (270 days) - differences in Swedish population or statistical errors.

Just eyeballing CDC data on who is dying of coronavirus it’s very hard to see how any statistical analysis could show the vaccine not “working” - the smaller unvaccinated population is making up a majority of hospitalizations and deaths in the USA, and most vaccinated persons haven’t received a booster in USA.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-s...

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitali...

Re: Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex [pdf]

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... positive -> vax infections 1/3 less likely than positive -> unvax - seems like it did prevent (some) infection for Delta at least.

This study has several issues which are rightly pointed out by the author: > Owing to the small sample size, the authors were not able to establish the vaccine effectiveness against asymptomatic infections versus symptomatic infections. This limitation together with the unconfirmed source of transmission in many of these index-contact pairs, suggests that the low SAR reported here should be interpreted with caution.…

Can you link to these studies?

Re: Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex [pdf]

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A doctor can't provide me with data that doesn't exist. I actually did ask a friend who's an ER doc about whether or not I should get one of the mRNA boosters, given that I have a history of pericarditis. He said that, based on the available studies, the risk of getting pericarditis/myocarditis from COVID is far greater than the risk of getting it from the vaccine, but he also conceded that he didn't know of any stud…

My point was that you're going to get terrible advice here, so what the hell are you even doing? The overall level of intellect displayed in Hacker News COVID threads is of the holy shit, there goes my faith in humanity level of quality. Just my opinion but you are barking up the wrong tree here. (these are important questions for a person who has been treated for a heart condition to bring up with their doctor )

Could you please stop posting flamewar comments and otherwise breaking the site guidelines? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

No matter how right you are, or feel you are, you can make your substantive points thoughtfully and within the rules here, so please do that instead. As a bonus, your arguments will be more effective that way.

Re: Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex [pdf]

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Since May 2021, people living in counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump during the last presidential election have been nearly three times as likely to die from COVID-19 as those who live in areas that went for now-President Biden. That's according to a new analysis by NPR that examines how political polarization and misinformation are driving a significant share of the deaths in the pandemic.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828...

Re: Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex [pdf]

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The spike protein RNA vaccine saturates the body causing an inflammatory response especial so in certain muscles that use lipids (vaccine contains lipid as a transport mechanism) as a primary source of energy such as the heart muscle. A good interview of this is [1] Joe Rogan Experience episode #1747 - Dr. Peter A. McCullough [1] https://open.spotify.com/episode/0aZte37vtFTkYT7b0b04Qz Edit: [2] The CDCs myocarditis p…

The 30 micrograms of ribonucleic acid in an mRNA vaccine dose get folded into protein and make their way into the lymph nodes in your armpit. They do not “saturate the body”. Joe Rogan interviews are not a reliable source of medical information. Rogan is a COVID conspiracy theorist of the “just asking questions” variety. For anyone unconvinced about this, and values diversity of opinions in their media diet, the rece…

> The 30 micrograms of ribonucleic acid in an mRNA vaccine dose get folded into protein and make their way into the lymph nodes in your armpit. They do not “saturate the body”.

I am pro-vaccine, but this isn't really true.

Note that we have animal studies that used luciferase mRNA to see where mRNA medications are transported and translated. There's some systemic transport no matter what, even with IM administration.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4624045/

> Intravenous and intraperitoneal and to a lesser extent intramuscular and intratracheal deliveries led to trafficking of mRNA-LNPs systemically resulting in active translation of the mRNA in the liver for 1–4 days.

https://i.imgur.com/YSCFUQS.png

Yes, the muscle in your arm does a lot of the production of the spike protein, and a lot of that spike protein is captured by the lymph nodes in your armpit. But decent chunk of the mRNA goes to your liver, too, and a big amount of spike protein circulates systemically no matter where it's produced.

Re: Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex [pdf]

#198
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This guy made a graph of their data, which makes it a little more clear: As another commenter as has pointed out, the graph in question in included in the PDF version of this preprint (which you can see here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.02.21267156v... ). I want to add: "this guy" is Vinay Prasad, a professor of oncology at UCSF and an incredibly prescient thinker through the COVID-19 pandemic,…

I don't understand how you can be skeptical about lockdowns. The virus needs people to come in contact in order to spread. If you reduce contact you reduce spreading. It's the simple fact of the matter. Case closed. Nobody denies lockdowns have damaging effects in other areas. That leaves a discussion about what kinds of lockdowns are worth the benefits they bring. But seems to me the sub isn't geared towards finding…

In an utopia where individual rights are not a matter of importance, lockdowns make perfect sense. Case in point is nearly every prison that locked their populace down to control the spread of the virus.

Re: Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex [pdf]

#199
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This guy made a graph of their data, which makes it a little more clear: As another commenter as has pointed out, the graph in question in included in the PDF version of this preprint (which you can see here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.02.21267156v... ). I want to add: "this guy" is Vinay Prasad, a professor of oncology at UCSF and an incredibly prescient thinker through the COVID-19 pandemic,…

I don't understand how you can be skeptical about lockdowns. The virus needs people to come in contact in order to spread. If you reduce contact you reduce spreading. It's the simple fact of the matter. Case closed. Nobody denies lockdowns have damaging effects in other areas. That leaves a discussion about what kinds of lockdowns are worth the benefits they bring. But seems to me the sub isn't geared towards finding…

> I don't understand how you can be skeptical about lockdowns. The virus needs people to come in contact in order to spread. If you reduce contact you reduce spreading. It's the simple fact of the matter. Case closed.

Just to check in with you - and this is honestly meant as a check-in and not an insult: do you realize how unabashedly privileged you sound? I ask this first because I know that for me, I often don't realize when I make statements that reflect my own privilege, and I find that when that happens, it's almost always a chance to learn something new and important. I hope that is the case here.

Let's look at how lockdowns _actually_ interdict spread:

I'm reasonably affluent. Long-time remote worker in a fairly elite engineering position. I am able to sit in my home and order everything I need delivered to me. I live in a two-generation household, and I'm the oldest. We are all at low risk for adverse outcomes from SARS-CoV-2. In fact, for us, the risk is statistically difficult to distinguish from any other year's circulating pathogens.

Meanwhile, the person delivering things to me (and thus entering and leaving dozens of restaurants and stores every day to obtain the things for me and my affluent neighbors) is far more likely to live with a higher-risk relative and also more likely to live in a three-generation home (which is a fairly dire situation in light of this pathogen).

Let's imagine that my delivery worker lives with his 82-year-old grandmother with untreated high blood pressure. For her, in contrast to me, the risk this year is _nothing_ like that resulting from a typical year's respiratory pathogens. It's perhaps as much as 100x higher. Her risk of hospitalization - which she is also less likely to be able to afford - may be as high as 10%, compared to my small fraction of a percent.

As the months go on, I'm "protected" from infection. Instead of being able to adjoin the cohort of the highest spread acuity and then isolate (which I believe is my civic duty as a low risk person, to protect my higher-risk neighbors), I have to wait a year or more for my inevitable infection.

But that's not the end of the world, right? I had to mostly socially isolate and work remotely for a while, cancel a bunch of trips, etc. But all in all, nothing to cry over.

Now: what about my delivery driver and his grandma? For them, my delay in getting infected comes at an enormous cost. Namely, it increases the overall chance that the high-risk members of their family will be infected. They might possibly be able to interdict infection across their three-generation household for a few weeks, but not for years.

Now perhaps you see the actual first-order impact of lockdowns: they don't simply "slow the spread", they actually break one of the most important tools humans have in our collective ability to fight infectious disease: our social proclivity to facilitate differences in spread acuity _by risk_. We are actually very good at ensuring that young, healthy people share pathogens and develop community immunity quickly.

By preventing that, we protect only those privileged enough among us to isolate more-or-less indefinitely. In other words, lockdowns don't change spread acuity, they just shift its stratification from being by risk (which is great for preventing adverse outcomes) to being by socioeconomic status (which is arguably the worst possible approach if the goal is to prevent adverse outcomes). My friend Jay Bhattacharya at Stanford refers to this situation as "let it drip" (a play on words in the face of "let it rip", a sophomoric slogan used by opponents of traditional vertical risk stratification).

So, what we're saying is that we can observe not only the collateral consequences of lockdowns (which of course are devastating), but also an undesirable impact in first-order effects: lockdowns which are long enough to decrease spread acuity in the low-risk tier also increase first-order death in the high-risk tier.

This is the reason that lockdowns (previously referred to as "quarantine of the healthy") are advised against in the published pandemic plans prior to 2019. By all means, go to Google Scholar (or your search engine of choice for scholarly material) and drive yourself down this memory lane. You'll be astounded and almost certainly come out the other end a lockdown skeptic.

Re: Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex [pdf]

#200
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No because there isn't evidence myocarditis occurs due to the vaccine acting systemically and getting uptaken by cardiac tissue.

"Moderna's (MRNA.O) COVID-19 vaccine is up to four times more likely to cause inflammation of the heart muscle, a very rare side effect, than its rival vaccine from Pfizer-BioNTech (PFE.N)" https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...

Well yes, that is a main takeaway from the study in question. Non sequitur to my post though
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