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Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

theguardian.com

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Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#161

Post by ThrowAwayKiwi22 »

lancewiggs wrote: post #44
josephcsible wrote: post #39

Investor visas are just a distraction. The fundamental problem is that there's any restriction whatsoever on New Zealand's citizens entering their own country. The MIQ system should be abolished, and anyone who helped create it, or who has had enough power in the country to abolish it but chose to let it continue, should be put in prison for human rights violations (specifically, in the Universal Declaration of Human…

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled. As it happens less than 50 have died, each one a tragedy, while I’ve just had a lovely Christmas with 3 generations, as many others are around the motu. Sure we had to video call relatives in other countries, but thei…

Lance, honestly this is a pathetic reply. New Zealand is already riddled with Covid incase you havent noticed. Cases detected in the community outnumber those at the border 27x for the last week. Given this fact, why does MIQ still exist?

Preventing new variants? Sure at the surface that might hold some credence, but that implies future responses will be to lock down again and impose massive economic costs and second/third order negative externalities on the population again... There will be more variants gauranteed, so what is being gauranteed here is perpetual restrictions, fragility and life in a hermit kingdom.

On your point around Xmas with three generations, congratulations, but without rapid lateral flow at home testing (which is still unavailable in New Zealand - wowee!), you might have unknowingly just had a super spreading event. The slowness of NZ policy to adapt to technological innovations is a real blight.

By the way New Zealands society decided no such thing; intellectual honesty goes a long way when presenting an arguement. Did we have a referendum to determine no one should die from covid? Its quite a perposterous thing to say.

Reality is MIQ was a knee jerk reaction by the MoH in March '20, faced with the stark realisation healthcare and its supporting beuracratic system was not up for the job. It still isnt and has no path to getting there. That is the real tragedy.

Big thinking and strategy is sorely needed in New Zealand. It's a shame all we get is confusion and people like yourself who think they know something trying to lead the narrative.

I was once a proud Kiwi, now I look on from afar and am saddened at the squandered potential of the place, underacheivment and lack of awareness are rife.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#162

Post by CallMeJim »

pixel_fcker wrote: post #103
silexia wrote: post #35

The solution is simple... Shut down the unnecessary MIQ system. Everyone has had the opportunity to get vaccinated and risks for those is now back to as low as it was prior to the pandemic.

What about people who can’t take the vaccine for medical reasons, or are too young? Fuck ‘em right?

Yes, exactly!

The 90% can't live isolated forever because of the 0.2% who can't have vaccines for medical reasons. (The remainder is made up of those who've made anti-vaxx part of their identity).

Put that money and resources into protecting the vulnerable, not into isolating New Zealand and severely impacting the economy in a vain attempt to keep a virus, which will be with us together, out.

Human lives aren't infinitely valuable. As an example, there were 318 road deaths in New Zealand in 2020, which could all have been avoided by lowering the speed limit to 10kmh.

This isn't a solution that would ever be considered seriously, because it's evident that the financial and flow-on social harm caused by such a rule would greatly outweigh the current death toll.

It's becoming increasingly evident that 'protecting those who can't be vaccinated by stifling New Zealand in draconian restrictions' is the same.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#163

Post by yardstick »

jimworm wrote: post #159

Even the most expensive MIQ places are incredibly cheap to the average millionaire, NZ$5520 for 14 days for a single adult, which gets cheaper per person when sharing [1]. There are also huge outstanding bills (over NZ$13M) from people that have been through MIQ and haven't paid [2]. Some of the hotels in the MIQ list could be a lot better than others [3]. The solution is to make these investor visa categories pay a…

Isn’t the real solution to disband MIQ? 90% eligible double vaccinated (95% eligible single dose).

How long should MIQ exist for?

Who should be responsible for paying MIQ dues?

I disagree that the traveler should be responsible anymore due to the high vaccination levels. The NZ govt, if it wishes to continue denying kiwis freedom of movement to return home to NZ (or travel to other countries they are citizens of) should shoulder the burden. Or a tax on the eligible-but-unvaccinated… after all, the traveler is having to quarantine to “protect” others, not themselves.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#164

Post by roca »

vasco wrote: post #160
roca wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: Larry Page entered NZ in early 2021 and was placed in a middling MIQ hotel. His people tried to get him moved to one of the best hotels but were unable to do so. Page is the world's fifth richest person. I think this counts against "New Zealand is bought and paid for by the cloistered elite".

They severely restricted the freedom to return home from all citizens but since they also made billionaire stay in a middle of the road hotel this is what sticks?

MIQ was an essential component of the elimination strategy. Elimination was a fundamentally egalitarian strategy; it disproptionately benefited the less-well-off, who inevitably suffer more when the virus is allowed to spread, and it was disproportionately costly to the wealthy and privileged, who had their jet-set lifestyles curtailed. International travellers are mostly not the underprivileged of society.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#165

Post by nowherebeen »

sabellito wrote: post #142
nowherebeen wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t most rich residents in NZ from the UK and US? That was my impression. The middle class are usually Chinese. But regardless, rich people in China and Russia don’t accumulate wealth simply by playing fair. Is NZ okay with this kind of wealth transfer to their country knowing this? (Well we all know the answer honestly)

> rich people in China and Russia don’t accumulate wealth simply by playing fair When you say it like that, creating a contrast between "east and west" and dishonest/criminal behaviour, it sounds a bit racist. Perhaps you'd like to expand on that point?

True. I can only say as a Software Engineer, the tech industry in China is highly unfair from my personal experience. There are a lot of bullying tactics involve for startups that are not invested by Tencent and Alibaba. Startup founders themselves are not much better because they don't give equity to employees. Therefore, all the wealth accumulates to the founder and their investors, while the employees slave away under 996. I wouldn't say it is criminal behavior though. I specific choose the word unfair for this reason.

I also like to point out, I don't think the West is any better either. As for Russia, I don't know enough to judge them. That, I apologize.

> Aren’t most rich residents in NZ from the UK and US

I also want to clarify this point. NZ is not usually on the list for rich Chinese people. They go to Singapore. But it is for rich Americans like Larry Page, Peter Thiel, and a few Silicon Valley execs.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#166

Post by csomar »

tjpnz wrote: post #114
parkingrift wrote: post #10

>Immigration New Zealand (INZ) recently granted 32 visas to people who pledged to invest at least $10m locally over three years and another 76 visas to individuals pledging to invest at least $3m, according to the news website Stuff. > With their visas in hand, investors may apply to compete for spots in New Zealand’s congested MIQ system. A stay in MIQ is a prerequisite for entry to the country, which has been large…

>The visa scheme seems to be an enormous benefit to NZ. This scheme was once touted as a way to jump start the NZ tech sector but it doesn't appear to be having any impact. Those getting the visa might only be in the country a few weeks in a year and their investments are going into companies which haven't done anything innovative in decades. The most scathing part of all is that New Zealand's still a terrible place…

Could it be because New Zealand is an agricultural economy that just also happens to be a very good place to live in?

There is a market to offering rich people passports. New Zealand is just Vanuatu but with extra-steps.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#167

Post by sabellito »

nowherebeen wrote: post #165
sabellito wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rich people in China and Russia don’t accumulate wealth simply by playing fair When you say it like that, creating a contrast between "east and west" and dishonest/criminal behaviour, it sounds a bit racist. Perhaps you'd like to expand on that point?

True. I can only say as a Software Engineer, the tech industry in China is highly unfair from my personal experience. There are a lot of bullying tactics involve for startups that are not invested by Tencent and Alibaba. Startup founders themselves are not much better because they don't give equity to employees. Therefore, all the wealth accumulates to the founder and their investors, while the employees slave away u…

You're saying that since, based on your personal experience, China doesn't play fair, NZ shouldn't be ok with this kind of wealth transfer? What about Russia, is that also your personal experience?

Your point about playing fair seems a bit specific. Do you think american and european startups play fair? So in that case american and european tech-millionaires should be allowed to invest in NZ and get a visa?

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#168

Post by refurb »

throwaway788 wrote: post #128
josephcsible wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense at all. Your life would have been strictly easier if MIQ didn't exist, so why are you grateful for it?

Perhaps because over the course of the pandemic only 50 people have died in NZ from Covid. Going through MIQ and the systems built around it has enabled seeding events to be limited to only several incursions supporting elimination and then suppression strategies. It’s interesting, NZ is a very egalitarian society and it has been one of the strengths through the pandemic to date. People were/are willing to adhere to…

Interestingly Singapore had no MIQ lottery or restriction and had about the same experience with Covid infections.

The difference was, was that they didn’t fuck over their citizens when they tried to return - they did their best to accommodate them.

But amazingly NZers are willing to give the government a pass on not altruism, but incompetence and violation of a right even Singaporeans enjoy.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#169

Post by grandpoobah »

pixel_fcker wrote: post #103
silexia wrote: post #35

The solution is simple... Shut down the unnecessary MIQ system. Everyone has had the opportunity to get vaccinated and risks for those is now back to as low as it was prior to the pandemic.

What about people who can’t take the vaccine for medical reasons, or are too young? Fuck ‘em right?

As far as I can tell, those who might normally be unable to take vaccines are being encouraged to do so with COVID.

The old "we all need to get vaccinated so that those who can't are protected by herd immunity" thing doesn't seem to apply here.

Example - https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases/third-p...

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#170

Post by csomar »

yardstick wrote: post #154
parkingrift wrote: post #10

>Immigration New Zealand (INZ) recently granted 32 visas to people who pledged to invest at least $10m locally over three years and another 76 visas to individuals pledging to invest at least $3m, according to the news website Stuff. > With their visas in hand, investors may apply to compete for spots in New Zealand’s congested MIQ system. A stay in MIQ is a prerequisite for entry to the country, which has been large…

> Seems the outrage should be directed at this MIQ system. The visa scheme seems to be an enormous benefit to NZ. You are absolutely correct on both counts. If we didn’t have MIQ, this would be a non-issue to most kiwis. The root of it is MIQ has prevented kiwis from traveling to/from NZ for the last 2 years. This has created massive strain on separated families and extended families. It has created stress on those i…

> NZ’s continued use of MIQ/draconian restrictions on freedom of movement is counter to what needs to happen (return to business as usual).

The picture should be clearer now? The business of NZ is selling to foreign investors. They are closing to contain the coronavirus because what matters are these foreign $$.

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